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        Jarrad, I agree with your policy of getting staff trained up in
    other areas to make a better work force. <br>
    <br>
       I work in a network department in a commonwealth agency.  It
    frustrates me to no end when I'm trying to explain something as
    simple as a VLAN to a senior IT manager(working in other IT areas)
    and all I get back is a blank look( that explains government!), if
    only they were forced to expand there horizons(sometimes I wonder
    how they ever got a job in IT )!. <br>
    <br>
    As for getting a foot in the door it is can be hard. I had left
    school, did a year at TAFE doing electronics full time in 93, then
    the real world hit and I had to get a job, not being 'qualified'
    according to IT employers at the time. I ended up at Ford motor co
    for 11 years on an assembly line. While I was working, I managed to
    complete (off campus) a diploma of computer systems, and then made a
    start at Uni doing a Bach comp science software dev. A year into my
    degree, I managed to get a real IT job in government on the big
    coin(sat comm's)!. Several years on now, and  I'm now 80% complete
    in my degree but have just requested to move over to a new Major
    called 'Cloud computing' as real world experience is telling me
    where I should be concentrating my study efforts. What looks good
    about this course, is that this one is one of the few courses that
    integrates CCNA training in with a degree. (now to aim for some RPL
    to knock it all over next year!).<br>
    <br>
    <deakin uni plug><br>
    <div data-canvas-width="107.445" style="left: 522.835px; top:
      551.804px; font-size: 15px; font-family: sans-serif; transform:
      scale(0.950841, 1); transform-origin: 0% 0% 0px;">Cloud Computing</div>
    <div data-canvas-width="416.1255000000001" style="left: 522.835px;
      top: 569.909px; font-size: 15px; font-family: sans-serif;
      transform: scale(0.950058, 1); transform-origin: 0% 0% 0px;">Cloud
      Computing is a significant development in the IT industry that </div>
    <div data-canvas-width="409.49250000000006" style="left: 522.835px;
      top: 587.909px; font-size: 15px; font-family: sans-serif;
      transform: scale(0.943531, 1); transform-origin: 0% 0% 0px;">is
      having a major impact on how software solutions are developed, </div>
    <div data-canvas-width="419.2965" style="left: 522.835px; top:
      605.909px; font-size: 15px; font-family: sans-serif; transform:
      scale(0.957298, 1); transform-origin: 0% 0% 0px;">deployed, and
      delivered over the web. You will undertake a study of </div>
    <div data-canvas-width="408.939" style="left: 522.835px; top:
      623.909px; font-size: 15px; font-family: sans-serif; transform:
      scale(0.944432, 1); transform-origin: 0% 0% 0px;">the concepts and
      technologies of cloud computing and acquire the </div>
    <div data-canvas-width="425.4059999999999" style="left: 522.835px;
      top: 641.909px; font-size: 15px; font-family: sans-serif;
      transform: scale(0.955969, 1); transform-origin: 0% 0% 0px;">necessary
      expertise to work effectively in this field, both by exploiting </div>
    <div data-canvas-width="410.82449999999994" style="left: 522.835px;
      top: 659.909px; font-size: 15px; font-family: sans-serif;
      transform: scale(0.962118, 1); transform-origin: 0% 0% 0px;">public
      cloud infrastructure options and through the construction of </div>
    <div data-canvas-width="170.0025" style="left: 522.835px; top:
      677.909px; font-size: 15px; font-family: sans-serif; transform:
      scale(0.965923, 1); transform-origin: 0% 0% 0px;">private cloud
      infrastructure.</div>
    <div data-canvas-width="395.70150000000007" style="left: 522.835px;
      top: 713.909px; font-size: 15px; font-family: sans-serif;
      transform: scale(0.935465, 1); transform-origin: 0% 0% 0px;">The
      major sequence incorporates the Cisco Certified Networking </div>
    <div data-canvas-width="404.97900000000004" style="left: 522.835px;
      top: 731.909px; font-size: 15px; font-family: sans-serif;
      transform: scale(0.933131, 1); transform-origin: 0% 0% 0px;">Associate
      (CCNA) curriculum that trains you in the skills needed to </div>
    <div data-canvas-width="423.8220000000001" style="left: 522.835px;
      top: 749.909px; font-size: 15px; font-family: sans-serif;
      transform: scale(0.958873, 1); transform-origin: 0% 0% 0px;">construct
      and maintain network infrastructures to effectively support </div>
    <div data-canvas-width="129.618" style="left: 522.835px; top:
      767.909px; font-size: 15px; font-family: sans-serif; transform:
      scale(0.939261, 1); transform-origin: 0% 0% 0px;">organisational
      needs.</div>
    <div data-canvas-width="417.52049999999997" style="left: 522.835px;
      top: 803.909px; font-size: 15px; font-family: sans-serif;
      transform: scale(0.946759, 1); transform-origin: 0% 0% 0px;">Subject
      areas include: cloud computing and virtualisation, computer </div>
    <div data-canvas-width="414.054" style="left: 522.835px; top:
      821.909px; font-size: 15px; font-family: sans-serif; transform:
      scale(0.941032, 1); transform-origin: 0% 0% 0px;">security,
      enterprise network construction and management, system </div>
    <div data-canvas-width="272.037" style="left: 522.835px; top:
      839.909px; font-size: 15px; font-family: sans-serif; transform:
      scale(0.941305, 1); transform-origin: 0% 0% 0px;">security and
      research and development in IT.</div>
    </deakin uni plug><br>
    <br>
    Good luck to the OP Rory in your quest..<br>
    <br>
    Cheers<br>
    Greg.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 24/12/2014 3:24 AM, Jarrad Mitchell
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:BLU182-W90AADFA8B0F48A4D0AC4C8E7570@phx.gbl"
      type="cite">
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><i>This is the reason I
            have every single one of my network engineers learning linux
            administration, a
            programming language (Python, Ruby, PHP, etc), the concepts
            of virtualisation,
            an automation tool (puppet, chef, etc) and SDN concepts -
            and openly told the
            gathering at a recently NOG launch in Asia that any senior
            engineer who hasn't
            learnt all these things to a decent level by the end of 2015
            will no longer be
            working for me. Simple as that.<o:p></o:p></i></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
            rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
            rgb(31, 73, 125);">What kinds of work do you foresee your
            engineers doing in a SDN world?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
            rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
            rgb(31, 73, 125);">It seems apparent to me that the ultimate
            end of SDN Philosophy is to
            reduce Network Hardware to little more than an API for
            packet forwarding.  Sure, in 2015 we may have an OpenFlow
            controller or two, but by 2020 will there be any need to
            have any network
            controller?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
            rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
            rgb(31, 73, 125);">In a world of Google, Facebook etc,
            ‘Applications’ are now whole
            software stacks whose needs boil down to little more than
            APIable
            Hardware.  The Application of the future
            wants to be able to say ‘give me xyz resources, now’.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
            rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
            rgb(31, 73, 125);">Once this vision has been realised,
            exactly what constitutes a Network
            Engineer?  Because it sure as heck won’t
            be someone with an Air Console and some mad programming
            skills.  The truth of the matter is that networking
            decisions will have been made by the Application Guys (in
            software) in India or
            where ever…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
            rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
            rgb(31, 73, 125);">Now, security on the other hand may be an
            interesting proposition, but
            for instance, if SDN Techniques allow the limiting of
            security holes to an
            Application (Network User) level, it is quite possible
            service provides etc
            could simply say ‘hey, you’re application is flawed, deal
            with it’.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
            rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
              rgb(31, 73, 125);">My
              point is as follows.  The end outcome of
              any API’d Hardware, no matter by what fancy name we call
              it, is that those
              involved with the hardware will have their job functions
              reduced to moves and
              changes.  And by that I mean plugging boxes
              & cables in.  <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
              rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></b></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
            rgb(31, 73, 125);">Remember, the Free Software Foundation
            & GNU (the non kernel half of
            linux), came about because Richard Stallman couldn’t just
            use the University he
            inhabited’ s new printer (due to a proprietary driver). 
            This was what, 1970 something?  Plugging in and using
            printers no longer
            gives rise to whole industries (or requires writing code)…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <br>
        <div>
          <hr id="stopSpelling">From:
          <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:skeeve+ausnog@eintellegonetworks.com">skeeve+ausnog@eintellegonetworks.com</a><br>
          Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 00:21:45 +1100<br>
          To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ciscoarc7@gmail.com">ciscoarc7@gmail.com</a><br>
          CC: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:cameron@jferdinands.com">cameron@jferdinands.com</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a><br>
          Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Work experience in
          networking/telecoms/DCs? Getting my foot in the door?<br>
          <br>
          <div dir="ltr">Frankly, I care little for CCIE... but they
            have marketing value... from a Cisco partnership
            perspective, customers like them and employees like you
            paying to get them there.  Also, helping an engineer get
            through the journey is far better than hiring a paper one.
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Also, I firmly believe that knowledge of networking is
              80% of the effort of a CCIE (or similar)... and that most
              CCIE's should be able to get a JNCIE or other similar
              levels in a short time (in the same vertical such as
              R&S) with focusing on that vendors particular nuances
              and terminology.... and I've seen it happen multiple times
              now.</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Cisco has one of the best baseline network training
              programmes out there.  Any faults in the education is the
              people learning it, not the knowledge itself.  I recommend
              most engineers who are even going to specialise in
              non-Cisco, to do the base Cisco CCNA first. Juniper also
              has one of the best education programmes out there, but
              mostly for beyond the basics.</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>I also disagree that engineers will always be needed to
              do the BGP and OSPF and many other things that automation
              and programming won't easily be able to do.  The best
              example is the programming world where most programmers
              use Frameworks to accomplish tasks they previously had to
              code manually.</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>How hard would (is it?) really be to write a platform
              where you could:</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>create bgp AS12345 called UPSTREAM_A;</div>
            <div>link to neighbour AS4567 over path linkgroup LINK_A
              using auto comms and preprend:localpref as needed to keep
              link at 50% load;</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Codification of anything is possible if you have the
              will.  This is what object programming is all about....
              and SDN is the future in these kinds of networks.</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>This is the reason I have every single one of my
              network engineers learning linux administration, a
              programming language (Python, Ruby, PHP, etc), the
              concepts of virtualisation, an automation tool (puppet,
              chef, etc) and SDN concepts - and openly told the
              gathering at a recently NOG launch in Asia that any senior
              engineer who hasn't learnt all these things to a decent
              level by the end of 2015 will no longer be working for me.
              Simple as that.</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Vendors have done a good job of keeping engineers away
              from the underlying operating system for a long time...
              Cisco IOS now runs on Linux, Junos is BSD, Arista EOS is a
              Linux kernel with Fedora Userland... and most of the
              others are the same.  Cisco Network Engineers (for the
              most part) have avoided learning TCL/EEM scripting and
              most other vendor specialists have done (not) much of the
              same.</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>The world is a changing place... and 2015-2016 is going
              to be a wakeup for Carrier, Service Provider engineers,
              with enterprise following along the tail end and into
              2017.  This is life people... The Cloud, Fabrics, SDN-like
              networking is going to change everything... wait for
              Software Defined Security... :)</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Next year Enterprise networks are going to start
              adopting Virtual Cross-Connect Fabrics and learn the art
              of on-Demand elastic infrastructure.  Any Carriers/ISPs
              who don't embrace what is coming will die in the next 24
              months, especially as the tech filters down the consumers
              who will insist on EoD (everything on demand).</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Networking has been boring for 10 years... change is
              now upon us... strap yourself in for a couple of fun
              years.</div>
            <div>
              <div class="ecxgmail_extra"><br clear="all">
                <div>
                  <div class="ecxgmail_signature">
                    <div dir="ltr">
                      <div>
                        <div dir="ltr">
                          <div><br>
                            ...Skeeve</div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <div><b
                                style="font-size:13px;font-family:Calibri;">Skeeve
                                Stevens - </b><span
                                style="font-size:13px;font-family:Calibri;">eintellego
                                Networks Pty Ltd</span></div>
                            <div>
                              <div><span
                                  style="font-family:Calibri;font-size:13px;"><a
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="mailto:skeeve@eintellegonetworks.com"
                                    target="_blank">skeeve@eintellegonetworks.com</a> ; <a
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="http://www.eintellegonetworks.com/"
                                    target="_blank">www.eintellegonetworks.com</a></span>
                                <p
                                  style="font-family:Calibri;font-size:13px;">Phone:
                                  1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383
                                  ; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    target="_blank">skype://skeeve</a></p>
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                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
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                                    target="_blank">facebook.com/eintellegonetworks</a> ; <a
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="http://linkedin.com/in/skeeve"
                                    target="_blank">linkedin.com/in/skeeve</a> </p>
                                <p
                                  style="font-family:Calibri;font-size:13px;"><a
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="http://twitter.com/theispguy"
                                    target="_blank">twitter.com/theispguy</a><span
                                    style="color:rgb(0,0,0);"> ; blog: </span><a
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="http://www.theispguy.com/"
                                    target="_blank">www.theispguy.com</a><br>
                                </p>
                                <p
                                  style="font-family:Calibri;font-size:13px;"><img
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    src="http://eintellegonetworks.com/logos/ein09.png"><br>
                                </p>
                                <p style=""><span
style="color:rgb(127,0,127);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:13px;">The
                                    Experts Who The Experts Call</span></p>
                              </div>
                              <div
style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px;color:rgb(127,0,127);"><span
style="color:rgb(0,32,96);font-size:13px;">Juniper - Cisco </span><span
style="color:rgb(0,32,96);font-size:13px;">- Cumulus Linux - Cloud</span><span
style="color:rgb(0,32,96);font-size:13px;"> </span><span
                                  style="color:rgb(0,32,96);font-size:13px;">-
                                  Consulting</span><span
                                  style="color:rgb(0,32,96);font-size:13px;"> </span><span
style="color:rgb(0,32,96);font-size:13px;">- IPv4 Brokering</span><br>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <br>
                <div class="ecxgmail_quote">On 23 December 2014 at
                  23:29, Andy S. <span dir="ltr"><<a
                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:ciscoarc7@gmail.com" target="_blank">ciscoarc7@gmail.com</a>></span>
                  wrote:<br>
                  <blockquote class="ecxgmail_quote"
                    style="border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
                    <div dir="ltr">
                      <div
                        style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small;">Agreed.</div>
                      <div
                        style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small;"><br>
                      </div>
                      <div
                        style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small;">I
                        doubt Openflow can troubleshoot or even roll out
                        medium enterprise BGP or OSPF automatically
                        without a need of an engineer (who knows these
                        routing protocols, defo).</div>
                      <div
                        style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small;"><br>
                      </div>
                      <div
                        style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small;">Interestingly,
                        Skeeve, I slightly remember you posted a Network
                        Engineer role with a promise to help them get
                        their CCIE. So if your personal view is that of
                        even CCIE is not worth not much in the next 5
                        years, how is helping them get their CCIE
                        provide any benefit for your company?</div>
                      <div
                        style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small;"><br>
                      </div>
                      <div
                        style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small;">Obviously
                        I am not having a go at you, just out of
                        curiosity.</div>
                      <div
                        style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small;"><br>
                      </div>
                      <div
                        style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small;">Regards,</div>
                      <div
                        style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small;">Andy</div>
                    </div>
                    <div class="ecxgmail_extra"><br>
                      <div class="ecxgmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 23, 2014
                        at 10:48 PM, Colin Stubbs <span dir="ltr"><<a
                            moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="mailto:colin.stubbs@equatetechnologies.com.au"
                            target="_blank">colin.stubbs@equatetechnologies.com.au</a>></span>
                        wrote:<br>
                        <blockquote class="ecxgmail_quote"
                          style="border-left:1px #ccc
                          solid;padding-left:1ex;">
                          <p dir="ltr">Pffft.</p>
                          <p dir="ltr">Provided they add that knowledge
                            to their pool they'll be fine. Understanding
                            Ethernet and STP, along with routing
                            protocols and label switching, will still be
                            critical. </p>
                          <p dir="ltr">What value will an OpenFlow
                            "expert" be if they don't understand what's
                            happening on top of the underlay network?
                            Answer: not much.</p>
                          <p dir="ltr">What good is a network engineer,
                            right now, that doesn't understand HTTP and
                            HTTPS? Answer: not much.<br>
                            <br>
                            <br>
                          </p>
                          <p dir="ltr">Sent from a mobile device.
                            Correct spelling and accurate use of grammar
                            is unlikely to have occurred.</p>
                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <div class="ecxgmail_quote">On 23/12/2014
                                10:35 pm, "Skeeve Stevens" <<a
                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
                                  href="mailto:skeeve%2Bausnog@eintellegonetworks.com"
                                  target="_blank">skeeve+ausnog@eintellegonetworks.com</a>>
                                wrote:<br>
                                <blockquote class="ecxgmail_quote"
                                  style="border-left:1px #ccc
                                  solid;padding-left:1ex;">
                                  <div dir="ltr">What will a
                                    Cisco./Juniper/etc engineer be worth
                                    in 5 years with technologies like
                                    OpenFlow, Cumulus Linux and many
                                    others yet to come....   not much in
                                    my opinion.</div>
                                  <div class="ecxgmail_extra"><br
                                      clear="all">
                                    <div>
                                      <div>
                                        <div dir="ltr">
                                          <div>
                                            <div dir="ltr">
                                              <div><br>
                                                ...Skeeve</div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div><b
                                                    style="font-size:13px;font-family:Calibri;">Skeeve
                                                    Stevens - </b><span
style="font-size:13px;font-family:Calibri;">eintellego Networks Pty Ltd</span></div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div><span
                                                      style="font-family:Calibri;font-size:13px;"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:skeeve@eintellegonetworks.com"
                                                        target="_blank">skeeve@eintellegonetworks.com</a> ; <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.eintellegonetworks.com/"
                                                        target="_blank">www.eintellegonetworks.com</a></span>
                                                    <p
                                                      style="font-family:Calibri;font-size:13px;">Phone:
                                                      1300 239 038; Cell
                                                      <a
                                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                        target="_blank">+61
                                                        (0)414 753 383</a>
                                                      ; <a
                                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                        target="_blank">skype://skeeve</a></p>
                                                    <p
                                                      style="font-family:Calibri;font-size:13px;"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://facebook.com/eintellegonetworks"
                                                        target="_blank">facebook.com/eintellegonetworks</a> ; <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://linkedin.com/in/skeeve"
                                                        target="_blank">linkedin.com/in/skeeve</a> </p>
                                                    <p
                                                      style="font-family:Calibri;font-size:13px;"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://twitter.com/theispguy"
                                                        target="_blank">twitter.com/theispguy</a><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);"> ; blog: </span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                        href="http://www.theispguy.com/"
                                                        target="_blank">www.theispguy.com</a><br>
                                                    </p>
                                                    <p
                                                      style="font-family:Calibri;font-size:13px;"><img
moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                        src="http://eintellegonetworks.com/logos/ein09.png"><br>
                                                    </p>
                                                    <p style=""><span
style="color:rgb(127,0,127);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:13px;">The
                                                        Experts Who The
                                                        Experts Call</span></p>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div
style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px;color:rgb(127,0,127);"><span
style="color:rgb(0,32,96);font-size:13px;">Juniper - Cisco </span><span
style="color:rgb(0,32,96);font-size:13px;">- Cumulus Linux - Cloud</span><span
style="color:rgb(0,32,96);font-size:13px;"> </span><span
                                                      style="color:rgb(0,32,96);font-size:13px;">-
                                                      Consulting</span><span
style="color:rgb(0,32,96);font-size:13px;"> </span><span
                                                      style="color:rgb(0,32,96);font-size:13px;">-
                                                      IPv4 Brokering</span><br>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                    <br>
                                    <div class="ecxgmail_quote">On 23
                                      December 2014 at 17:56, Graeme
                                      Allen <span dir="ltr"><<a
                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                                          href="mailto:gallen@mytelecom.com.au"
                                          target="_blank">gallen@mytelecom.com.au</a>></span>
                                      wrote:<br>
                                      <blockquote class="ecxgmail_quote"
                                        style="border-left:1px #ccc
                                        solid;padding-left:1ex;">
                                        <div>At one time they used the
                                          word "Legacy" as a weapon
                                          against Nortel, Lucent, et al.
                                          The thing about empires is
                                          they rarely learn from
                                          history. What's a Novell
                                          certified engineer worth these
                                          days?<br>
                                          <br>
                                          <br>
                                          <br>
                                          <br>
                                          <div class="ecxgmail_quote">On
                                            23 December 2014 20:48:42
                                            GMT+11:00, "Andy S." <<a
                                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                                              href="mailto:ciscoarc7@gmail.com"
                                              target="_blank">ciscoarc7@gmail.com</a>>
                                            wrote:
                                            <blockquote
                                              class="ecxgmail_quote"
                                              style="border-left:1px
                                              solid
                                              rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;">
                                              <div dir="ltr">
                                                <div
                                                  style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small;">I
                                                  think they have
                                                  revamped their CCIE
                                                  now (version 5) which
                                                  I am gunning (slowly)
                                                  towards. </div>
                                                <div
                                                  style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small;"><br>
                                                </div>
                                                <div
                                                  style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small;">One
                                                  of their bigger change
                                                  is replacing Frame
                                                  Relay with DMVPN. Also
                                                  it is now virtualised
                                                  and I read it
                                                  somewhere according to
                                                  Cisco, it enables them
                                                  to do 20-ish routers
                                                  (always changing)
                                                  topology and can make
                                                  it more to
                                                  "real-world". </div>
                                                <div
                                                  style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small;"><br>
                                                </div>
                                                <div
                                                  style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small;">This
                                                  hopefully enough to
                                                  iron out those
                                                  textbook CCIEs. </div>
                                                <div
                                                  style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small;"><br>
                                                </div>
                                                <div
                                                  style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small;">I
                                                  just remember one of
                                                  my mate told a story
                                                  about one particular
                                                  CCIE doing "switchport
                                                  trunk allowed vlan
                                                  xxx" instead of
                                                  "switchport trunk
                                                  allowed vlan add xxx"
                                                  and caused an outage.
                                                  Companies losing money
                                                  (according to him.
                                                  It's a stock trading
                                                  company). Though it's
                                                  weird they needed more
                                                  time to address where
                                                  the issue was. </div>
                                                <div
                                                  style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small;"><br>
                                                </div>
                                                <div
                                                  style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small;">Regards,</div>
                                                <div
                                                  style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small;">Andy</div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div
                                                class="ecxgmail_extra"><br>
                                                <div
                                                  class="ecxgmail_quote">On
                                                  Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at
                                                  6:55 PM, Michael
                                                  Wheeler <span
                                                    dir="ltr"><<a
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:michael@michael-wheeler.org" target="_blank">michael@michael-wheeler.org</a>></span>
                                                  wrote:<br>
                                                  <blockquote
                                                    class="ecxgmail_quote"
                                                    style="border-left:1px
                                                    #ccc
                                                    solid;padding-left:1ex;">
                                                    <div dir="ltr">Hopefully
                                                      their exam
                                                      simulation stuff
                                                      improves. Twice
                                                      now I've done an
                                                      exam and you do
                                                      something slightly
                                                      unexpected that's
                                                      not covered by the
                                                      text book (but
                                                      would satisfy the
                                                      question
                                                      requirements) and
                                                      the simulation
                                                      completely breaks.
                                                      And not in the
                                                      since of the
                                                      network stops
                                                      working, the
                                                      actual simulation
                                                      software does
                                                      things that just
                                                      repeats the same
                                                      command over and
                                                      over again without
                                                      letting you enter
                                                      in any input.
                                                      Naturally the exam
                                                      moderator where I
                                                      do my exams
                                                      doesn't even know
                                                      how a router is
                                                      meant to react nor
                                                      knows how to tell
                                                      Cisco that their
                                                      sim is faulty so I
                                                      get a failed exam
                                                      and down a bunch
                                                      of my own money.
                                                      In the end I just
                                                      rote memorized the
                                                      solution off some
                                                      website command
                                                      for command so
                                                      that the friggin
                                                      sim wouldn't
                                                      crash. Yes I feel
                                                      dirty doing it
                                                      that way which is
                                                      why after that
                                                      cert I haven't
                                                      done any exams
                                                      (even though I
                                                      covered the
                                                      material).
                                                      <div><br>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>Interested to
                                                        see the future
                                                        of
                                                        network/communications
qualifications...</div>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <div
                                                          class="ecxgmail_extra"><br>
                                                          <div
                                                          class="ecxgmail_quote">On
                                                          23 December
                                                          2014 at 17:12,
                                                          Beeson, Ayden
                                                          <span
                                                          dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ABeeson@csu.edu.au" target="_blank">ABeeson@csu.edu.au</a>></span>
                                                          wrote:<br>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          class="ecxgmail_quote"
                                                          style="border-left:1px
                                                          #ccc
                                                          solid;padding-left:1ex;">
                                                          <div
                                                          lang="EN-AU">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="ecxMsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d;">On
                                                          the topic,
                                                          Cisco have
                                                          identified
                                                          textbook
                                                          CCIE’s as an
                                                          issue, they
                                                          are in the
                                                          process of
                                                          redoing all
                                                          their
                                                          certification
                                                          tests to
                                                          better align
                                                          with real
                                                          world skills,
                                                          with a lot
                                                          more
                                                          simulations
                                                          and lab tests
                                                          and a lot less
                                                          multiple
                                                          choice etc.</span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="ecxMsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d;"> </span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="ecxMsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d;">I
                                                          know the CCNP
                                                          TSHOOT exam
                                                          has been
                                                          redone as all
                                                          simulation
                                                          situations
                                                          with real
                                                          equipment
                                                          configurations
                                                          etc, I know
                                                          CCNP SWITCH
                                                          and ROUTE were
                                                          pending the
                                                          changeover
                                                          when I last
                                                          did any of
                                                          them (a year
                                                          ago roughly)</span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="ecxMsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d;"> </span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="ecxMsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d;">I
                                                          think it’s a
                                                          very good idea
                                                          and I’m glad
                                                          that it is
                                                          happening,
                                                          certifications
                                                          are not worth
                                                          a lot if you
                                                          can hold one
                                                          without
                                                          actually
                                                          understanding
                                                          what you have
                                                          learnt….</span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="ecxMsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d;"> </span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="ecxMsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d;">Thanks,</span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="ecxMsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#333333;">Ayden
                                                          Beeson<i> </i></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d;"></span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="ecxMsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d;"> </span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="ecxMsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";"
                                                          lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";"
                                                          lang="EN-US">
                                                          AusNOG
                                                          [mailto:<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net</a>]
                                                          <b>On Behalf
                                                          Of </b>Cameron
                                                          Ferdinands<br>
                                                          <b>Sent:</b>
                                                          Tuesday, 23
                                                          December 2014
                                                          6:05 PM<br>
                                                          <b>To:</b>
                                                          Skeeve Stevens<span><br>
                                                          <b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net"
                                                          target="_blank">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a><br>
                                                          <b>Subject:</b>
                                                          Re: [AusNOG]
                                                          Work
                                                          experience in
                                                          networking/telecoms/DCs?
                                                          Getting my
                                                          foot in the
                                                          door?</span></span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="ecxMsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="ecxMsoNormal">That's
                                                          my one of my
                                                          favourite
                                                          interview
                                                          questions.</p>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="ecxMsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="ecxMsoNormal">"Whats
                                                          your favourite
                                                          routing
                                                          protocol?"</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="ecxMsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="ecxMsoNormal">There
                                                          only wrong
                                                          answer is
                                                          reading a line
                                                          from a
                                                          textbook, if
                                                          you love RIP
                                                          tell me why
                                                          you love RIP!
                                                          What's good
                                                          about it?
                                                          What's bad
                                                          about
                                                          it?</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="ecxMsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="ecxMsoNormal">On
                                                          23 December
                                                          2014 at 08:58,
                                                          Skeeve Stevens
                                                          <<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:skeeve+ausnog@eintellegonetworks.com" target="_blank">skeeve+ausnog@eintellegonetworks.com</a>>
                                                          wrote:</p>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          style="border:none;border-left:solid
                                                          #cccccc
                                                          1.0pt;padding:0cm
                                                          0cm 0cm
                                                          6.0pt;">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="ecxMsoNormal">Yup..
                                                          had about a
                                                          dozen last
                                                          year.  And
                                                          then even if
                                                          they do have
                                                          good
                                                          theoretical
                                                          knowledge, the
                                                          other thing
                                                          missing is
                                                          experience,
                                                          common sense
                                                          and product
                                                          knowledge. 
                                                          Being a
                                                          CCIE/NP and
                                                          not being able
                                                          to recommend a
                                                          switch model
                                                          is annoying
                                                          (for me).</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="ecxMsoNormal"><br
                                                          clear="all">
                                                          </p>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="ecxMsoNormal"><br>
                                                          ...Skeeve</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="ecxMsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="ecxMsoNormal"><b>
                                                          <span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";">Skeeve
                                                          Stevens - </span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";">eintellego
                                                          Networks Pty
                                                          Ltd</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="ecxMsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:skeeve@eintellegonetworks.com"
                                                          target="_blank">skeeve@eintellegonetworks.com</a> ; <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.eintellegonetworks.com/"
                                                          target="_blank">www.eintellegonetworks.com</a></span></p>
                                                          <p style=""><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";">Phone:
                                                          1300 239
                                                          038; Cell <a
moz-do-not-send="true" target="_blank">+61 (0)414 753 383</a>
                                                          ; <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="skype://skeeve">skype://skeeve</a></span></p>
                                                          <p style=""><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://facebook.com/eintellegonetworks"
                                                          target="_blank">facebook.com/eintellegonetworks</a> ; <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://linkedin.com/in/skeeve"
                                                          target="_blank">linkedin.com/in/skeeve</a> </span></p>
                                                          <p style=""><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://twitter.com/theispguy"
                                                          target="_blank">twitter.com/theispguy</a><span
style="color:black;"> ; blog: </span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                          href="http://www.theispguy.com/"
target="_blank">www.theispguy.com</a></span></p>
                                                          <p style=""><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";"><img
moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                          src="http://eintellegonetworks.com/logos/ein09.png"
                                                          border="0"></span></p>
                                                          <p style=""><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7f007f;">The
                                                          Experts Who
                                                          The Experts
                                                          Call</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="ecxMsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#002060;">Juniper
                                                          - Cisco -
                                                          Cumulus Linux
                                                          - Cloud -
                                                          Consulting -
                                                          IPv4 Brokering</span><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7f007f;"></span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="ecxMsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="ecxMsoNormal">On
                                                          23 December
                                                          2014 at 08:54,
                                                          Peter
                                                          Tiggerdine
                                                          <<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ptiggerdine@gmail.com" target="_blank">ptiggerdine@gmail.com</a>>
                                                          wrote:</p>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          style="border:none;border-left:solid
                                                          #cccccc
                                                          1.0pt;padding:0cm
                                                          0cm 0cm
                                                          6.0pt;">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="ecxMsoNormal">I
                                                          think we've
                                                          all being in
                                                          that interview
                                                          (or heard
                                                          second hand )
                                                          with
                                                          a textbook
                                                          CCIE and when
                                                          pressed can't
                                                          seem to
                                                          explain the
                                                          simple things.</p>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="ecxMsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="ecxMsoNormal">experience
                                                          is where it's
                                                          at.</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="ecxMsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="ecxMsoNormal">On
                                                          Tue, Dec 23,
                                                          2014 at 7:22
                                                          AM, Scott
                                                          Weeks <<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:surfer@mauigateway.com" target="_blank">surfer@mauigateway.com</a>>
                                                          wrote:</p>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          style="border:none;border-left:solid
                                                          #cccccc
                                                          1.0pt;padding:0cm
                                                          0cm 0cm
                                                          6.0pt;">
                                                          <p
                                                          class="ecxMsoNormal"><br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          --- <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Alex.Samad@yieldbroker.com" target="_blank">Alex.Samad@yieldbroker.com</a>
                                                          wrote:<br>
                                                          From: Alex
                                                          Samad -
                                                          Yieldbroker
                                                          <<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Alex.Samad@yieldbroker.com" target="_blank">Alex.Samad@yieldbroker.com</a>><br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Then I would
                                                          have a look at
                                                          real work
                                                          experience,<br>
                                                          not
                                                          certification
                                                          boot camps..<br>
----------------------------------------------<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          I wish more
                                                          folks did this
                                                          instead of
                                                          starting off<br>
                                                          interviews
                                                          with
                                                          cert-style
                                                          questions,
                                                          which seem to<br>
                                                          only test rote
                                                          memorization
                                                          skills.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          scott<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          AusNOG mailing
                                                          list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net">AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog">http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog</a>
                                                          </p>
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          </div>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </div>
                                                    </div>
                                                  </blockquote>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                            </blockquote>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </blockquote>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </blockquote>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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