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    An ISP provided mailbox is a PITA - a single domain with so many
    email address' on it becomes a hassle. You have people wanting 3+
    mailboxes for all their family, then the hassle of when they move
    away from your services they want to keep their mailbox or have a
    forwarder so you have to maintain that (for a small fee) which over
    time builds you up to many hundreds or thousands of mailboxes to
    manage, backup and actually process the work-load for. This is after
    the argument that they dont want to pay any money and want to move
    everything over to new provider then eventually come back realising
    they need our help to keep their email address alive.<br>
    <br>
    Big domains like that are also more targeted for SPAM. Our biggest
    ISP domain name we use accounts for 50% of our SPAM I'd say. 1
    Domain in hundreds, counting for 50% of the work our spam filters
    have to do.<br>
    <br>
    Sure if you want to buy a domain and buy a hosting package I'm all
    for it and will help you, as thats at least semi-portable for the
    customer, and a decent profit margin for the service, but we've
    stopped creating <b>new</b> ISP domain emails and are suggesting
    gmail for personal use.<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 31/10/14 09:41, Noel Butler wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:0ba841fdd1de777430e5ec1ddf9b5e37@ausics.net"
      type="cite">
      <p>pffft</p>
      <p>anyone who is going to do something stupid is hardly going to
        use a provider supplied email, and recommending they use gmail
        or hotmail shows you dont care about their users privacy, you
        only care about your part in responsibility.</p>
      <p> </p>
      <p><span style="font-size: 12px;">I think there are way too many
          paranoid people here, its almost like, the writers of
          "millenium"  should read the archives of this list for a great
          comeback series :)</span></p>
      <p> </p>
      <p>On 30/10/2014 16:58, Skeeve Stevens wrote:</p>
      <blockquote type="cite" style="padding-left:5px;
        border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px"><!-- html ignored --><!-- head ignored --><!-- meta ignored -->
        <div dir="ltr">I'd love to know what is meant by SMTP.
          <div> </div>
          <div>For new providers I'm building these days my
            recommendation is to do NO mail.  Consumers can go to
            gmail/hotmail/etc...  and businesses run their own.</div>
          <div> </div>
          <div> </div>
          <div>If I ran an SMTP relay for customers, I would tell
            customers not to use it... so there would be no record.</div>
          <div> </div>
          <div>Business should setup a $10 per month AWS instance in the
            US or Japan and relay email through that.</div>
          <div> </div>
          <div>My opinion is that if we don't offer the service, we
            can't actually log it or give the information over.</div>
          <div> </div>
          <div>On the other hand.. if they are asking us to intercept
            traffic to figure this stuff out... then I'd think there
            would be a much bigger problem.</div>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
          <div>
            <div dir="ltr">
              <div><br>
                ...Skeeve</div>
              <div> </div>
              <div>
                <div><strong style="font-size: 13px; font-family:
                    Calibri;">Skeeve Stevens - </strong><span
                    style="font-size: 13px; font-family: Calibri;">eintellego
                    Networks Pty Ltd</span></div>
                <div>
                  <div><span style="font-family: Calibri; font-size:
                      13px;"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:skeeve@eintellegonetworks.com">skeeve@eintellegonetworks.com</a> ; <a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="http://www.eintellegonetworks.com/">www.eintellegonetworks.com</a></span>
                    <p style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 13px;
                      margin: 0px;">Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414
                      753 383 ; <a moz-do-not-send="true">skype://skeeve</a></p>
                    <p style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 13px;
                      margin: 0px;"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="http://facebook.com/eintellegonetworks">facebook.com/eintellegonetworks</a> ; <a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="http://linkedin.com/in/skeeve">linkedin.com/in/skeeve</a> </p>
                    <p style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 13px;
                      margin: 0px;"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="http://twitter.com/theispguy">twitter.com/theispguy</a><span
                        style="color: #000000;"> ; blog: </span><a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="http://www.theispguy.com/">www.theispguy.com</a></p>
                    <p style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 13px;
                      margin: 0px;"><img
                        src="cid:part8.01050906.01080402@apcs.com.au"
                        alt=""></p>
                    <p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #7f007f;
                        font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:
                        13px;">The Experts Who The Experts Call</span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif;
                    font-size: 14px; color: #7f007f;"><span
                      style="color: #002060; font-size: 13px;">Juniper -
                      Cisco </span><span style="color: #002060;
                      font-size: 13px;">- Cloud</span><span
                      style="color: #002060; font-size: 13px;"> </span><span
                      style="color: #002060; font-size: 13px;">-
                      Consulting</span><span style="color: #002060;
                      font-size: 13px;"> </span><span style="color:
                      #002060; font-size: 13px;">- IPv4 Brokering</span></div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
          <br>
          <div class="gmail_quote">On 30 October 2014 11:54, David
            Beveridge <span><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:dave@bevhost.com">dave@bevhost.com</a>></span>
            wrote:<br>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0 0 0 .8ex;
              border-left: 1px #ccc solid; padding-left: 1ex;">
              <div dir="ltr">I don't know why you're so upset about
                this. 
                <div>They're only asking you to keep radius and smtp
                  logs.</div>
                <div>It's not like you're being asked to keep two years
                  worth of netflow history.</div>
                <div> </div>
                <div>dave</div>
              </div>
              <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                <div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 30, 2014 at 10:35
                  AM, Paul Julian <span><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:paul@oxygennetworks.com.au">paul@oxygennetworks.com.au</a>></span>
                  wrote:<br>
                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0 0 0
                    .8ex; border-left: 1px #ccc solid; padding-left:
                    1ex;">
                    <div lang="EN-AU">
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                            11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';
                            color: #1f497d;">This is total bullshit,
                            these people just have no clue, is there
                            nothing we can do as a community to try and
                            stop this nonsense ?<span
                              style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span
                              style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                            11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';
                            color: #1f497d;"><span
                              style="text-decoration: underline;"></span> <span
                              style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                            11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';
                            color: #1f497d;">I can just see the $$$$
                            now.....<span style="text-decoration:
                              underline;"></span><span
                              style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                            11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';
                            color: #1f497d;"><span
                              style="text-decoration: underline;"></span> <span
                              style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                            11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';
                            color: #1f497d;">Regards<span
                              style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span
                              style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                            11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';
                            color: #1f497d;">Paul<span
                              style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span
                              style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                            11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';
                            color: #1f497d;"><span
                              style="text-decoration: underline;"></span> <span
                              style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span
                              style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family:
                              'Tahoma','sans-serif';">From:</span></strong><span
                            style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family:
                            'Tahoma','sans-serif';"> AusNOG [mailto:<a
                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                              href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net">ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net</a>]
                            <strong>On Behalf Of </strong>Andrew Yager<br>
                            <strong>Sent:</strong> Thursday, 30 October
                            2014 11:22 AM<br>
                            <strong>To:</strong> <a
                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                              href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a><br>
                            <strong>Subject:</strong> [AusNOG] Metadata
                            retention... it's now (almost) a thing<span
                              style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span
                              style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                style="text-decoration: underline;"></span> <span
                                style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><a
                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/latest/turnbull-to-rush-metadata-retention-legislation-through-parliament/story-e6frg90f-1227106806266?nk=72104b22405c826c296d068859fd4bea">http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/latest/turnbull-to-rush-metadata-retention-legislation-through-parliament/story-e6frg90f-1227106806266?nk=72104b22405c826c296d068859fd4bea</a><span
                                  style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span
                                  style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="text-decoration: underline;"></span> <span
                                    style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal">Andrew<br
                                    clear="all">
                                  <span style="text-decoration:
                                    underline;"></span><span
                                    style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                      style="text-decoration:
                                      underline;"></span> <span
                                      style="text-decoration:
                                      underline;"></span></p>
                                </div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal">-- <span
                                    style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span
                                    style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><strong>Andrew
                                      Yager, Managing Director</strong>
                                      <em>MACS (Snr) CP BCompSc
                                      JNCIS-SP</em><br>
                                    Real World Technology Solutions Pty
                                    Ltd - IT people you can trust<br>
                                    ph: 1300 798 718 or (02) 9037 0500<br>
                                    fax: (02) 9037 0591<br>
                                    <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                      href="http://www.rwts.com.au/">http://www.rwts.com.au/</a><span
                                      style="text-decoration:
                                      underline;"></span><span
                                      style="text-decoration:
                                      underline;"></span></p>
                                </div>
                              </div>
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                    </div>
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