<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>Hi,</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span>I am still confused I think.</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue',
Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span>As an SP we currently have a /32 from APNIC that is (I assume) from PA space and so it should only ever be announced as a single /32 by us. This means that any sub-allocations we might make to our customers are not provider independent and so if/when the customer moves on they need to return the address space to us and renumber using the address space provided to them from their new SP.</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span>Assuming one of our customers (the larger
ones that have multiple sites, and hundreds of devices) meet the APNIC criteria for their own PI space so that they never have to renumber IPv6 space when they change SP, there would appear to be two options:</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span>1. Customer becomes APNIC member and applies to APNIC directly for PI space. Assuming the meet the criteria (and pay up) they will get a /48 of PI from APNIC - problem solved, costs customer annual APNIC fees.</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue',
Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span>2. We assign the customer some PI space (that is then theirs forever). We can't/shouldn't do that out of our existing /32 and so would need to apply for some more space from APNIC that is able to be assigned as PI to our customers who request. Once we have this additional address space we would assign it in /48's to our customers who wanted this (assuming it was justified). We could either apply for a larger chunk at once to divide up for all of our existing and future customers that require it, or apply in /48 chunks each time.</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue',
Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;">Can we get more space from APNIC for assigning as PI or do we need to get our /32 "converted" to be from the appropriate pool ? We haven't gone too far yet into actually using our /32 so wouldn't be too much grief to do this at this stage. I do need to know though if this is the correct way to go about it. We're also unlikely to use a /32 even if we're "giving away" /48's to large customers that then leave us at some point in the future. I'm fairly sure there is enough in a /32 to go around. Yes, I guess having customers IPv6 networks numbered out on OUR non-portable space might help to lock them into us by making it hard to change
providers, but if this is the only reason they are staying with us as customers then we are doing something wrong.</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><br></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;">I could ask APNIC directly, but I also know there are some peoples from APNIC that read this list, perhaps they are able to respond about what can/can't/should be done for the benefit of all in this scenario ? Am I unique in my questions ? Has this come up before ?</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-style: normal;
background-color: transparent;"><br></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;">Perhaps we should be just telling our customers to foot the bill and get their own IPv6 PI space and stay out of the middle (and just advertise it for them as required). If this is the case though we still need to know this, so we can recommend to customer that this is what they should be doing. The only reason we'd look to do it on their behalf (option #2 above) would be to simplify it for them. I'm not too concerned about cost to the customer, if they can't manage an extra $1200 PA for IP address space then they probably aren't big enough to be trying to justify PI anyway (although if it's a cost we can help them avoid at no expense to us, then why wouldn't we help them).</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><br></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;">As someone said, in terms of routing table sizes, if a /48 is going to be advertised it doesn't matter what space it comes from, it's still going to be another /48 in the table.</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><br></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><br></div><div
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;">Thanks,</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;">Tony.</div><div><br></div> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <hr size="1"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Bryan Socha <bryan@digitalocean.com><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Tony <td_miles@yahoo.com> <br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> ausnog@lists.ausnog.net; Karl
Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au>; Jeroen Massar <jeroen@massar.ch> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, 3 July 2014 5:30 PM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [AusNOG] Should we be a LIR for our customers and get them PI (Was: another ipv6 Q)<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container"><br><div id="yiv7167085624"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>Why not just tell apnic you made an error, you meant to get PI space so you can allocate blocks to customer sites and find out what the process is to convert it. I can't see them saying no, you'll reduce your overhead and you'll use the space as intended with /32+ for providers, /48 per site and your customer has tons of /64s to use at each site.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none"></div>To get another /32 you'll need to justify it and from this conversation it sounds like you might have a problem proving your 80% in use.<br clear="all"><div><div><div><div><div class="yiv7167085624gmail_extra"><div><div dir="ltr">
<br clear="none">Bryan Socha<br clear="none">Network Engineer<br clear="none">DigitalOcean<br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div></div>
<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yiv7167085624yqt0196542442" id="yiv7167085624yqtfd14607"><div class="yiv7167085624gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 3:19 AM, Tony <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:td_miles@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:td_miles@yahoo.com">td_miles@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br clear="none"><blockquote class="yiv7167085624gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div class="yiv7167085624">On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:54:25 +1000, Jeroen Massar <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:jeroen@massar.ch" target="_blank" href="mailto:jeroen@massar.ch">jeroen@massar.ch</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<blockquote class="yiv7167085624gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
On 2014-07-03 02:45, Tony wrote:<br clear="none">
[..]<br clear="none">
<blockquote class="yiv7167085624gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
"the network is statically addressed and of a size or complexity that<br clear="none">
make renumbering operationally impractical, together with evidence<br clear="none">
that dynamic or multiple addressing options are either not available<br clear="none">
from the relevant ISP or are unsuitable"<br clear="none">
</blockquote>
<br clear="none">
Simple answer to $RIR for these kind of requests:<br clear="none">
- client requires to never renumber due to complexity of network.<br clear="none">
- client requires independent connectivity.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
This case can easily be made for most businesses.<br clear="none">
(not so easily for a 2 person company though ;)<br clear="none">
</blockquote>
<br clear="none"></div>
I don't know, with a shiny new NBN fibre NTU with 4 ports that I can easily get concurrent connectivity from 4 separate ISP's if I wanted to, perhaps I might just need my own /48 PI at my house :)<div class="yiv7167085624"><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<blockquote class="yiv7167085624gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<br clear="none">
<blockquote class="yiv7167085624gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
So the solution is that any business that thinks they might be<br clear="none">
uncomfortable renumbering IPv6 should apply for a PI /48 ? As previously<br clear="none">
mentioned on this thread the costs seems to be in the order of $1200 PA.<br clear="none">
</blockquote>
<br clear="none">
Not if you have an LIR (eg SAGE-AU or any other LIR) that covers the<br clear="none">
base fee, and then requests the PI space on their behalf.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
For the LIR it is just an extra prefix, thus just a bit more cash. See<br clear="none">
the various calculators mentioned in the parent thread.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<blockquote class="yiv7167085624gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
Should we be encouraging our business customers that meet this criteria<br clear="none">
(multiple sites, few hundred devices) to get IPv6 space from APNIC and<br clear="none">
then advertise it for them (for global connectivity) ?<br clear="none">
</blockquote>
<br clear="none">
Yes. And you as the upstream can act as the LIR.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Note that your customer might chose to use different/additional<br clear="none">
upstreams to actually serve their traffic once they have their PI<br clear="none">
prefix. They can also move their PI prefix to another LIR etc.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</blockquote>
<br clear="none"></div>
Thanks for the info. So we just apply for PI space on customers behalf that will then be outside of our /32 and bill them (if we so choose) the incremental cost for their PI allocation (eg. /48) ? Given our IPv4 space, we can apply for a metric-bucket-load of extra /48's before we would end up paying any more in annual fees to APNIC.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Sounds easy enough. Is this what others are doing in this space (business customers) ?<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
I am looking at this from the perspective of our customers who will shortly be saying "what IPv6 addresses can we use for devices on our network across 20 sites" ?<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
regards,<br clear="none">
Tony.<div class="yiv7167085624HOEnZb"><div class="yiv7167085624h5"><br clear="none">
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