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<div>I've personally connected small networks to IXes that have no permanent network staff at all. If this were really the issue the question as to how these networks conducts their business is a serious one …</div>
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<div>The argument about CAPEX for the port is ridiculous - again, look at the price they are currently paying for transit. This is just short sighted, nothing else.</div>
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<div>This whole thing screams for a get together during AusNOG in Sydney?</div>
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<div>On 8/4/13 4:56 PM, "Joshua D'Alton" <<a href="mailto:joshua@railgun.com.au">joshua@railgun.com.au</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div dir="ltr">True, but those small ISPs are single homed and will have quite simple setups. Indeed a cross connect or worst case some fiber interconnect might be relatively cheap, but peering requires talking BGP and that for a start requires more expensive
gear (lol @ megaport $500/month for 10G, cheap on OPEX sure but a single fiber module will cost you a years worth of peering, and a router another 5-20yrs so the CAPEX is the issue there), and then the engineering side. I know a few small ISPs that run a bunch
of l2/l3 services at a fairly reasonable scale, but with a grand total of 2 networking guys max per ISP, and across all of them only a couple of CCNAs or similar at best.
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<div>Anyway, playing devils advocate here, personally if I was an ISP beyond ICT/SOHO levels (so say 10k customers), I'd definitely have a national network and probably be selling more than just DSL tail products, but onselling interconnects to other similar/smaller
ISPs who don't want to do it themselves, and peering would play a massive role in that. I think Megaport has mostly the right idea, especially with the free for 6 months part, but to reach the ISPs with only a handleful of staff and maybe only 1 who knows
what BGP even is... well that is more of an education and sales thing than aforementioned technical/cost reasons.</div>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 4:41 PM, Cameron Daniel <span dir="ltr">
<<a href="mailto:cdaniel@nurve.com.au" target="_blank">cdaniel@nurve.com.au</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
For most service provider networks, peering in at least one location is very achievable. The small networks you mention are generally set up in well-connected locations so they can pick up their DSL tails/transit cheaply. These locations typically have at least
one IX present.<br>
<br>
The cost of peering, assuming you have the ports available and meet the bandwidth requirements to make it commercially viable (ie. very little), comes down to operational expense. It's an extra "thing" that needs monitoring and some occasional attention from
the engineering team/person.<br>
<br>
Assuming the cost of peering is less than the cost of a transit port, it's almost always a good idea. The barrier for entry to an IX isn't as high as some people seem to think.
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<div class="h5"><br>
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On 2013-08-04 4:16 pm, Joshua D'Alton wrote:<br>
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<div class="h5">And just adding to that, the scale you have in EU/US is 10-100x what<br>
you have here. So we might have... well hundreds of ISPs and a few<br>
thousand AS#, but where the 100th largest in Europe will have multiple<br>
PoPs with carrier grade equipment and at least 10 network engineers<br>
and doing 50Gbit+ traffic, the 100th network here in Australia is 1<br>
PoP, 2 engineers at best and doing a few hundred Mbit at best, so its<br>
not really cost effective to consider peering, or even practical. The<br>
vast majority of AU networks (ASn or not) are single homed to begin<br>
with, let alone thinking about peering.<br>
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On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Wolfgang Nagele<br>
<<a href="mailto:wolfgang.nagele@ausregistry.com.au" target="_blank">wolfgang.nagele@ausregistry.<u></u>com.au</a>> wrote:<br>
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<div class="h5">Hi Mark,<br>
<br>
The only difference that I can agree to is the distance between<br>
major cities. All the rest is the same in every market around the<br>
world. In my mind the vast distances between major cities should<br>
make the case for peering even stronger. Also as far as distance and<br>
availability of IXes goes Australia is not that much different from<br>
the US. Most peering in the US is carried out at the West and East<br>
coast - same as in Australia.<br>
<br>
I did receive a reply off-list that pointed out what I believe may<br>
be the real reason for the difference in peering culture. In<br>
Australia the Internet did not start with small ISPs all over the<br>
place - it started with the Incumbent. That makes for a very<br>
different dynamic around market control.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Wolfgang<br>
<br>
On 8/4/13 9:40 AM, "Mark ZZZ Smith" <<a href="mailto:markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au" target="_blank">markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au</a>><br>
wrote:<br>
<br>
I think it could be a symptom of a few differences between Australia<br>
and other regions.<br>
<br>
Australia has a small number of large cities, spread apart by 100s<br>
of Kms. As a consequence, there are only a small number of IXes in<br>
each city, and the network effect (the more something is used, the<br>
more valuable it becomes), keeps that number of IXes small. If<br>
you're going to connect to an interstate IX, you need to be large<br>
enough to afford that sort of infrastructure (e.g, be able to afford<br>
to pay for a reasonable bandwidth link that goes 100s of Kms), and<br>
you're going to go to the most popular IX(es) to gain the best value<br>
from peering.<br>
<br>
Once you connect to an IX, multilateral peering with a couple of<br>
the IX's route servers provides more value than bilaterally peering<br>
in most cases, because you avoid the administrative overhead of all<br>
those bilateral peering setups. <br>
<br>
To be worth doing, bilateral peering would need to either provide a<br>
peering with somebody who won't multilateral peer at an IX, or<br>
peering that provides more useful value than what the existing<br>
multilateral peering provides.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Mark.<br>
<br>
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-------------------------<br>
FROM: Shaun McGuane <<a href="mailto:shaun@rackcentral.com.au" target="_blank">shaun@rackcentral.com.au</a>><br>
TO: Tom Paseka <<a href="mailto:tom@cloudflare.com" target="_blank">tom@cloudflare.com</a>>; Wolfgang Nagele<br>
<<a href="mailto:wolfgang.nagele@ausregistry.com.au" target="_blank">wolfgang.nagele@ausregistry.<u></u>com.au</a>><br>
CC: "<a href="mailto:Ausnog@ausnog.net" target="_blank">Ausnog@ausnog.net</a>" <<a href="mailto:Ausnog@ausnog.net" target="_blank">Ausnog@ausnog.net</a>><br>
SENT: Sunday, 4 August 2013 3:16 AM<br>
SUBJECT: Re: [AusNOG] Why is peering in Australia so hard?
<div class="im"><br>
<br>
Hi Guys,<br>
<br>
I just wanted to chime in here … We are peering with Wolfgang and<br>
set it up last week.<br>
We are all for peering .. and if anyone wants to reach out and peer<br>
with us we have gear/pop in the following locations.<br>
<br>
530 Collins St (MDF / & MDC Level 15 )<br>
525 Collins St (MDF Rialto Towers)<br>
NextDC M1<br>
Primus DC Melbourne<br>
Vocus Doody St Sydney<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
Shaun McGuane<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
FROM: AusNOG [mailto:<a href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog-bounces@lists.<u></u>ausnog.net</a>] ON BEHALF OF<br>
Tom Paseka<br>
SENT: Sunday, 4 August 2013 3:01 AM<br>
TO: Wolfgang Nagele<br>
CC: <a href="mailto:Ausnog@ausnog.net" target="_blank">Ausnog@ausnog.net</a><br>
SUBJECT: Re: [AusNOG] Why is peering in Australia so hard?
<div class="im"><br>
<br>
Wolfgang,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Australia isn't opposed to peering any more or less so than Europe.<br>
Difference is many operators wont set up direct sessions over the<br>
fabric, instead relying on peering with the Route Server(s) to<br>
exchange routes. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Tom<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 7:24 AM, Wolfgang Nagele<br>
<<a href="mailto:wolfgang.nagele@ausregistry.com.au" target="_blank">wolfgang.nagele@ausregistry.<u></u>com.au</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Coming from Europe I have to say that I am still surprised about the<br>
reluctance in Australia to peer with each other. Leaving the large<br>
players and their various (mainly) political motives aside, why the<br>
reluctance among the small providers here?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
To put it into perspective, we've just recently rolled out a<br>
substantial global Anycast deployment and while we are struggling to<br>
get decent numbers of peers at various IXes here we've established<br>
many in both Europe and the US.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Anybody can shed some light on this issue for me?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
And for those that actually just would like to peer - our details<br>
</div>
are here: <a href="http://as58620.peeringdb.com" target="_blank">http://as58620.peeringdb.com</a> [1]
<div class="im"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
<br>
Wolfgang Nagele<br>
<br>
IT Manager<br>
<br>
AusRegistry Pty Ltd<br>
<br>
Level 8, 10 Queens Road<br>
<br>
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia, 3004<br>
<br>
Phone <a href="tel:%2B61%203%209866%203710" value="+61398663710" target="_blank">
+61 3 9866 3710</a><br>
<br>
Email: <a href="mailto:wolfgang.nagele@ausregistry.com.au" target="_blank">wolfgang.nagele@ausregistry.<u></u>com.au</a><br>
<br>
</div>
Web: <a href="http://www.ausregistry.com.au" target="_blank">www.ausregistry.com.au</a> [2]
<div class="im"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
<br>
Links:<br>
------<br>
[1] <a href="http://as58620.peeringdb.com/" target="_blank">http://as58620.peeringdb.com/</a><br>
[2] <a href="http://www.ausregistry.com.au/" target="_blank">http://www.ausregistry.com.au/</a><br>
[3] <a href="http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog" target="_blank">http://lists.ausnog.net/<u></u>mailman/listinfo/ausnog</a><br>
[4] <a href="http://www.rackcentral.com.au" target="_blank">http://www.rackcentral.com.au</a>
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