<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>The scale you _peer_ at is your decision, not the result of some external condition. How much transit you buy is a different matter. <br> <div> -Bill</div><div><br></div></div><div><br>On Aug 4, 2013, at 8:17, "Joshua D'Alton" <<a href="mailto:joshua@railgun.com.au">joshua@railgun.com.au</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr">And just adding to that, the scale you have in EU/US is 10-100x what you have here. So we might have... well hundreds of ISPs and a few thousand AS#, but where the 100th largest in Europe will have multiple PoPs with carrier grade equipment and at least 10 network engineers and doing 50Gbit+ traffic, the 100th network here in Australia is 1 PoP, 2 engineers at best and doing a few hundred Mbit at best, so its not really cost effective to consider peering, or even practical. The vast majority of AU networks (ASn or not) are single homed to begin with, let alone thinking about peering.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Wolfgang Nagele <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:wolfgang.nagele@ausregistry.com.au" target="_blank">wolfgang.nagele@ausregistry.com.au</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<div>Hi Mark,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The only difference that I can agree to is the distance between major cities. All the rest is the same in every market around the world. In my mind the vast distances between major cities should make the case for peering even stronger. Also as far as distance
and availability of IXes goes Australia is not that much different from the US. Most peering in the US is carried out at the West and East coast - same as in Australia.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I did receive a reply off-list that pointed out what I believe may be the real reason for the difference in peering culture. In Australia the Internet did not start with small ISPs all over the place - it started with the Incumbent. That makes for a very
different dynamic around market control.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers,</div>
<div>Wolfgang</div><div><div class="h5">
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div>
<div>On 8/4/13 9:40 AM, "Mark ZZZ Smith" <<a href="mailto:markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au" target="_blank">markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:bookman old style,new york,times,serif">
<div>I think it could be a symptom of a few differences between Australia and other regions.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;font-family:'bookman old style','new york',times,serif">
Australia has a small number of large cities, spread apart by 100s of Kms. As a consequence, there are only a small number of IXes in each city, and the network effect (the more something is used, the more valuable it becomes), keeps that number of IXes small. <span style="font-size:12pt">If
you're going to connect to an interstate IX, you need to be large enough to afford that sort of infrastructure (e.g, be able to afford to pay for a reasonable bandwidth link that goes 100s of Kms), and you're going to go to the most popular IX(es) to gain
the best value from peering.</span></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;font-family:'bookman old style','new york',times,serif">
<br>
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<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;font-family:'bookman old style','new york',times,serif">
Once you connect to an IX, multilateral peering with a couple of the IX's route servers provides more value than bilaterally peering in most cases, because you avoid the administrative overhead of all those bilateral peering setups. </div>
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<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;font-family:'bookman old style','new york',times,serif">
To be worth doing, bilateral peering would need to either provide a peering with somebody who won't multilateral peer at an IX, or peering that provides more useful value than what the existing multilateral peering provides.</div>
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<br>
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<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;font-family:'bookman old style','new york',times,serif">
Regards,</div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;font-family:'bookman old style','new york',times,serif">
Mark.</div>
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<hr size="1">
<font face="Arial"><b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b> Shaun McGuane <<a href="mailto:shaun@rackcentral.com.au" target="_blank">shaun@rackcentral.com.au</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Tom Paseka <<a href="mailto:tom@cloudflare.com" target="_blank">tom@cloudflare.com</a>>; Wolfgang Nagele <<a href="mailto:wolfgang.nagele@ausregistry.com.au" target="_blank">wolfgang.nagele@ausregistry.com.au</a>>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b> "<a href="mailto:Ausnog@ausnog.net" target="_blank">Ausnog@ausnog.net</a>" <<a href="mailto:Ausnog@ausnog.net" target="_blank">Ausnog@ausnog.net</a>>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, 4 August 2013 3:16 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [AusNOG] Why is peering in Australia so hard?<br>
</font></div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">Hi Guys,</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">I just wanted to chime in here … We are peering with Wolfgang and set it up last week.
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">We are all for peering .. and if anyone wants to reach out and peer with us we have gear/pop in the following locations.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">530 Collins St (MDF / & MDC Level 15 )</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">525 Collins St (MDF Rialto Towers)</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">NextDC M1</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">Primus DC Melbourne</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">Vocus Doody St Sydney</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">Regards</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">Shaun McGuane</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span></div>
<div><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt"> AusNOG [<a href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Tom Paseka<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, 4 August 2013 3:01 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Wolfgang Nagele<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:Ausnog@ausnog.net" target="_blank">Ausnog@ausnog.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusNOG] Why is peering in Australia so hard?</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div>Wolfgang,</div>
<div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>Australia isn't opposed to peering any more or less so than Europe. Difference is many operators wont set up direct sessions over the fabric, instead relying on peering with the Route Server(s) to exchange routes. </div>
</div>
<div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>Cheers,</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>Tom</div>
</div>
<div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 7:24 AM, Wolfgang Nagele <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:wolfgang.nagele@ausregistry.com.au" target="_blank">wolfgang.nagele@ausregistry.com.au</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.5pt">Hi,</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.5pt"> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.5pt">Coming from Europe I have to say that I am still surprised about the reluctance in Australia to peer with each other. Leaving the large players and their various (mainly) political motives
aside, why the reluctance among the small providers here?</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.5pt"> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.5pt">To put it into perspective, we've just recently rolled out a substantial global Anycast deployment and while we are struggling to get decent numbers of peers at various IXes here we've established
many in both Europe and the US.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.5pt"> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.5pt">Anybody can shed some light on this issue for me?</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.5pt"> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.5pt">And for those that actually just would like to peer - our details are here:
<a rel="nofollow" href="http://as58620.peeringdb.com/" target="_blank">http://as58620.peeringdb.com</a></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.5pt"> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.5pt">Regards,</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.5pt"> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.5pt">--</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.5pt">Wolfgang Nagele</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.5pt">IT Manager</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.5pt">AusRegistry Pty Ltd</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.5pt">Level 8, 10 Queens Road</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.5pt">Melbourne, Victoria, Australia, 3004</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.5pt">Phone <a rel="nofollow">
+61 3 9866 3710</a></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.5pt">Email: <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:wolfgang.nagele@ausregistry.com.au" target="_blank">
wolfgang.nagele@ausregistry.com.au</a></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.5pt">Web: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.ausregistry.com.au/" target="_blank">
www.ausregistry.com.au</a></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.5pt"> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.5pt"> </span></div>
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