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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-AU link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Whilst I understand the motivation behind the NogList I question how useful it will be for the following reasons:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>1. The point is made about an apparent proliferation of ‘non technical’ discussions on AusNOG. If the new list is to be strictly technical then you aren’t going to have too many lurkers or journalists sniffing around anyway. I get the general idea though – for some people their work is way too important to allow any sort of levity. Whilst I would question whether they have the right balance in their life I wouldn’t condemn anyone for having that sort of work ethic.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>2. Skeeve – I seriously question your comment that ‘One of the features of the NogList.com list is that people will be able to talk openly’. Regardless of how open the list is, the people on that list are still in competition with each other so I doubt that there will be a new era of glasnost among network operators other than perhaps people being a bit more willing to openly point the finger at other people, knowing that it won’t be a headline in the tech section of tomorrow’s Australian.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Anyways only time will tell I guess. As long as the most informative/entertaining people don’t abandon our beloved AusNOG it will be no skin off our collective off-topic noses.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I do realise that Bevan said this wasn’t a discussion and in the true spirit of AusNOG I find myself compelled to join in on the discussion. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>J</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Gary<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net [mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Skeeve Stevens<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, 26 April 2013 5:56 PM<br><b>To:</b> Don Gould<br><b>Cc:</b> ausnog@lists.ausnog.net<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusNOG] Noglist.com<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Hey Don,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>One of the features of the NogList.com list is that people will be able to talk openly... which on Ausnog they are not due to the media and many others who may react to a lot of information.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>It is my feeling that NogList should be a closed list which has the primary purpose of Network Operator information only.... which, while people would love to know about things, is of very little real value to them.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>If you open the list to Read Only access, then it does away with the semi-private aspect.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I support it being a closed list... not just because I am a network operator, but because I believe it is a very good idea.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br>...Skeeve<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Skeeve Stevens - </span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>eintellego Networks Pty Ltd</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><a href="mailto:skeeve@eintellegonetworks.com" target="_blank">skeeve@eintellegonetworks.com</a> ; <a href="http://www.eintellegonetworks.com/" target="_blank">www.eintellegonetworks.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p style='margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><a href="http://facebook.com/eintellegonetworks" target="_blank">facebook.com/eintellegonetworks</a> ; <a href="http://linkedin.com/in/skeeve" target="_blank">linkedin.com/in/skeeve</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><a href="http://twitter.com/networkceoau" target="_blank">twitter.com/networkceoau</a> ; blog: <a href="http://www.network-ceo.net/" target="_blank">www.network-ceo.net</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm'><img border=0 width=100 height=100 id="_x0000_i1025" src="cid:~WRD000.jpg" alt="Image removed by sender."></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7F007F'>The Experts Who The Experts Call</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#002060'>Juniper - Cisco - Cloud</span><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7F007F'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 5:33 PM, Don Gould <<a href="mailto:don@bowenvale.co.nz" target="_blank">don@bowenvale.co.nz</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Will your new list be publicly visible with only authorised posters or simply completely closed?<br><br>D<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On 26/04/2013 12:31 p.m., Bevan Slattery wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>Hi everyone,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>As part of the previous discussion, I prepared the new list called Noglist.com. I was asked by Ausnog to hold off until they had a chance to propose a solution to the existing issues. Ausnog will be more proactively moderating the Ausnog list. A great step forward and good news.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>However, feedback from many people off-list is that regardless of increased moderation, they feel they are no longer prepared to contribute to many of the discussions due to the open nature of the list. Concerns include:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>1. Any communication is available to any person or organisation that subscribes including journalists and non-network people<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>2. Any communication is archived publicly and widely available to the public<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>3. While initial discussions are generally on-topic, they typically detoriate over a short period of time<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>4. Too much non-technical traffic is still being generated<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>It has been agreed that a new closed list will be created. Requirements are listed on the site and include:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><ol start=1 type=1><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'> network operator/administrator or engineer on a public network with an ASN.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'>technical expert for network hardware or software systems<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'>Owner/operator of underlying critical network infrastructure (data centres, underground infrastructure eg. pit/pipe, submarine or inter-capital, energy and utility providers)<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'>Persons who are widely recognised as having considerable and valuable input to the community<o:p></o:p></li></ol></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>It is the intention that the list will build over a reasonably short period of time to include all major network and infrastructure administrators and owners.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Now to be very clear – it is not intended to replace Ausnog and will NOT replace Ausnog. Ausnog is a very valuable resource to the community. However what has become apparent is that there is a substantial amount of information that is not discussed or disclosed to the Ausnog list for fear of possible sensitive information being republished.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Currently running a test environment here: <a href="https://noglist.com/test.php" target="_blank">https://noglist.com/test.php</a> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>This is for information only and not intended for discussion.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Cheers<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>[b]<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>AusNOG mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="mailto:AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog" target="_blank">http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog</a><o:p></o:p></pre><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><span class=hoenzb><span style='color:#888888'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><pre><span style='color:#888888'>-- <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#888888'>Don Gould<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#888888'>31 Acheson Ave<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#888888'>Mairehau<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#888888'>Christchurch, New Zealand<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#888888'>Ph: + 64 3 348 7235<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#888888'>Mobile: + 64 21 114 0699<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#888888'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>_______________________________________________<br>AusNOG mailing list<br><a href="mailto:AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net">AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net</a><br><a href="http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog" target="_blank">http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>