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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">EIGRP just went open BTW pity it's only
10 years to late. Im with Skeeve here and would stay with one of
the myriad that have have been open for some time. <br>
<br>
Matt.<br>
<br>
<br>
On 17/04/13 9:37 PM, Skeeve Stevens wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAEUfUGONZQ6=Yvd9aRivUvDYRhqR4b2ewbfZStxJavDp1RGQ7Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">I never recommend EIGRP on the basis I recommend
everyone to always avoid any vendor specific protocols if it can
helped.
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="">When there are protocols in abundance, why do it
to yourself?</div>
<div style=""><br>
</div>
<div style=""><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div><br>
...Skeeve</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div><b style="font-size:13px;font-family:Calibri">Skeeve
Stevens - </b><span
style="font-size:13px;font-family:Calibri">eintellego
Networks Pty Ltd</span></div>
<div>
<div><span style="font-family:Calibri;font-size:13px"><a
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Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; <a
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<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 9:32 PM, Tom
Berryman <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:tom@connectivityit.com.au" target="_blank">tom@connectivityit.com.au</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-AU">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Any
reason EIGRP doesn’t get a look in here? (I will
presume naively that it’s a full Cisco operation- or
some brave other vendor implements it).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I’d
suggest it has an advantage in the simplicity and
support stakes.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Tom.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
name="13e17c5ecb0d6f68__MailEndCompose"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US"> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net"
target="_blank">ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net</a>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net"
target="_blank">ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>J Williams<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 17 April 2013 5:39 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Matt Carter<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net"
target="_blank">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusNOG] VPLS OSPF question</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">RSVP could create significant
administrative overhead. Are you using auto tunnel
or automesh, or some scripting?</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">BBA with PPPoE, nice for
hub-and-spoke topology and very ISP-ish. ^_^</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Discussed this briefly with my
colleague, and come up with following:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">BGP with dual RR. Can use BFD
where needed for need fast convergence.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">If this is an all Cisco shop,
then DMVPN.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">IS-IS is nice as doesn't rely
on IP, but not supported on many low end routers.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">OSPF is ok, but consider the
CPU requirements, especially if using IPv6 as
well.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Cheers,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Jules</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at
10:45 AM, Matt Carter <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mattc@mansol.net.au"
target="_blank">mattc@mansol.net.au</a>>
wrote:</p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
#cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">What
about MPLS-TE ?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><br>
…Consider BGP has no understanding of
interface bandwidth, in reality it
barely knows anything about where
traffic should go and hides
non-best-path information, passing
only along the “best route” where
advertising a second path forces a
withdrawl of the first. This is a
inherent problem if you want
flexibility & scale, using an
underlying IGP (ISIS/OSPF) and
something like RSVP allows a full end
to end path to be built with
consideration for the bandwidth &
available paths end to end, every
router has a copy of the TE traffic
engineering database. (no loops
possible.) …… BGP MEDs on scale don’t
really help much for the pain they
impose (anyone?) and you tend to find
a closest-exit regime anyway.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">In
short, BGPs ability to manipulate
traffic in an MPLS environment is
limited, it may be great for
exchanging edge information using
multiprotocol extensions offered by
BGP, but for the core transport you
really want to leverage off the TE
capabilities provided by ISIS or OSPF.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">At
the very least this lets you adjust
your network and service offering
based on things like throughput and
delay, bandwidth and paths available
in the underlying core network, which
you simply can’t get by doing a simple
“virtual-mesh” topology using l2
switching vlans / QinQs etc creating
shortcuts everywhere to make routers
appear to be 1 hop from each other.
There’s no/little feedback or dynamic
capability from the underlying network
architecture in that model without
relying on STP or multiple shortcut
vlans, messy messy messy.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">My
2c.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid
blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
<div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid
#b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm
0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net"
target="_blank">ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net</a>
[mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net"
target="_blank">ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Johann Lo<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 17 April
2013 10:09 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tom Storey</span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net"
target="_blank">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusNOG]
VPLS OSPF question</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">True.
I guess I misunderstood your
question.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">But
I’d just K.I.S.S. and split the
VPLS into VLANs (one for each
state etc.) and then run each as
an OSPF area. I’d assume with a
VPLS cloud that size you’d have
Q-in-Q. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">The
real impetus with deploying BGP
would be if you want to run MPLS
and VRFs internally but even
then you could get away with
VLANs and VRF-lite and leak
routes via real devices e.g.
inter VRF aggregation firewalls.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">There’s
also operational overhead, good
luck getting any decent
troubleshooting out of the lower
levels before it escalates to
senior. Ditto with
implementations. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I’ve
had a very bad experience with
an extremely complex, BGP as
internal topology network with
27 VRFs and multiple points of
redistribution, any routing
change turned into a CCIE lab.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US"> Tom Storey [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:tom@snnap.net"
target="_blank">mailto:tom@snnap.net</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 17 April
2013 9:51 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Johann Lo<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Mitchell Warden; <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net"
target="_blank">
ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusNOG]
VPLS OSPF question</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Im aware iBGP
generally requires an IGP as
well, to distribute loopback
information at a minimum, and
that is is generally slower to
propagate updates than the likes
of an IGP - thats all 101 stuff.</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">What I dont
get is why this would make BGP
any less useful internally. I
mean, if I had to peer 200
sites across a VPLS I'd
probably do it with some form
of BGP rather than an IGP.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 17 April
2013 00:05, Johann Lo <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Johann.Lo@aptel.com.au"
target="_blank">Johann.Lo@aptel.com.au</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">No,
not really…. Why do you
think most people run
their iBGP on top of
something else?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Also
BGP convergence time is
inferior to
OSPF/EIGRP/ISIS</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net</a>
[mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Tom
Storey<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday,
17 April 2013 4:40 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mitchell
Warden</span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
[AusNOG] VPLS OSPF
question</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Whats
wrong with using BGP
internally. Isnt that
what iBGP is for?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On
16 April 2013 10:34,
Mitchell Warden <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:wardenm@wardenm.net" target="_blank">wardenm@wardenm.net</a>>
wrote:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi
Brad,<br>
<br>
Some ideas below.
There are a lot of
considerations...<br>
<br>
OSPF<br>
- Will run fine on a
VPLS service. I've
done this with up to
30 or so sites in
the past and it
works well.<br>
- 200 is a lot of
sites - I would try
to break it down to
multiple smaller
domains.<br>
- 50 routers in an
area isn't a big
deal. It will depend
on the CPU and the
number of updates,
but even 200 is
unlikely to be a
problem. <br>
- 200 neighbour
adjacencies however
might be a big deal
(they're all on the
same broadcast
domain). I think 200
is too many.<br>
<br>
BGP<br>
- All of the routers
could be in the same
subnet so they would
be able to reach
each other directly
without an IGP, if
you build neighbors
with interface
addresses instead of
loopbacks.<br>
- You would need to
use route reflectors
to avoid having to
mesh all 200
routers.<br>
- I can't think of
any reason BGP would
reduce available
bandwidth.<br>
- BGP isn't really
designed to be used
internally, and I
would try to avoid
using it that way.<br>
- BGP is probably
better than OSPF if
you can't reduce the
size of the domain.
It will be more
scalable and
probably more
reliable.<br>
<br>
Cheers.<br>
Mitchell</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
<p
style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"> </p>
<p
style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><strong><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Johann Lo</span></strong></p>
<p
style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><strong><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Senior IP
Network
Engineer</span></strong></p>
<p
style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"> </p>
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<p
style="text-align:center"
align="center"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><a
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href="http://www.aptel.com.au/" title="" target="_blank"><span
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<p
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<strong><span
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Asian Pacific
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3004</span></p>
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<span
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<strong><span
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<p
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<br>
----- Original
Message -----<br>
From: Brad
McGinn<br>
[mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:the_xorach@yahoo.com" target="_blank">the_xorach@yahoo.com</a>]<br>
To: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a><br>
[mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a>]<br>
Sent: Tue, 16
Apr 2013
17:14:02<br>
+1000<br>
Subject:
[AusNOG] VPLS
OSPF question<br>
<br>
<br>
> Hi AusNog
list,<br>
<br>
Long time
listener,
first or
second time
caller.<br>
<br>
I<br>
> know this
list is pretty
specific to
Service
Providers so
I'm hoping any
of<br>
> you who
not only know
carrier
networks, but
also have an
insight into<br>
>
enterprise
networks maybe
able to help
me to get a
view (or even
help<br>
>
understanding)
of the pros
and cons
of running
OSPF or
BGP across a
VPLS<br>
>
network. <br>
<br>
I respectfully
ask your
advice. <br>
<br>
I am an
enterprise<br>
> network
engineer, not
a service
provider
however I hope
you don't hold
that<br>
> against
me. We run
OSPF in our
Data Centre
and BGP into a
MPLS network<br>
> that all
of our sites
connect into.<br>
<br>
My fairly
basic
understanding
of VPLS<br>
> is kind
of like EoMPLS
or even one
big broadcast
domain. I assume any<br>
> IGP could
potentially
work across it
but some
factors must
be taken into<br>
>
consideration:
eg flapping
sites,
latency,
reference
bandwidth,
DR/BDR<br>
>
placement,
multicast
transmission
and so on.<br>
<br>
So, with that
in mind, I'm<br>
> wondering
the following:<br>
- would it
be wise to run
an IGP across
a<br>
> VPLS
backbone with
over 200
sites? or
would BGP be
better? or
even something<br>
> else?<br>
- if an IGP
is the go,
would one use
OSPF?<br>
- if OSPF,
do<br>
> you think
it would be
wiser to run a
separate OSPF
process for
the VPLS<br>
> connected
sites and a
separate OSPF
process for
the DC? and
then<br>
>
redistribute
or just
summarise
right there?
(so as to
protect the DC
from<br>
> OSPF
recalculations
when sites go
up and down)<br>
- if BGP
would be the<br>
> go I'm
wondering how
one might go
about it.. I
know that all
iBGP<br>
>
neighbours
must have a
route to the
peering IP of
all other iBGP
routers so<br>
> I would
assume an IGP
must be run
anyway???<br>
- cisco say
that<br>
> anything
more than 50
routers on an
area is a bad
idea, so if I
have over<br>
> 200 sites
potentially on
the VPLS, will
OSPF cut it?<br>
<br>
I guess i'm
just<br>
> trying to
get my head
around the
different
technology.
I'd love to
keep<br>
> the
stability that
BGP brings,
but also would
like to
be able to
make use<br>
> of the
bandwidth that
VPLS gives.<br>
<br>
Any hints or
tips will be
gratefully<br>
> received
and thank you
for any help.
If you would
like to keep
from<br>
>
cluttering up
subscriber's inboxes,
please reply
offlist.<br>
<br>
Again, thanks<br>
> for any
help.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Brad David</p>
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