<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>In my experience, what is far more damaging to a list's usefulness is not the occasional marginally off-topic thread, but rather the death spiral of meta-discussions about how the list is run. Forking the list seems to me more likely to make the overall situation worse, because you'll then have people copying in multiple lists to ensure their audience, and those that are on more than one list get bombarded with redundant copies. A sizeable chunk of this community I think has already seen this with the proliferation of "aussie-isp" lists.</div><div><br></div><div>kim</div><div>(admittedly, not sure if he'd qualify the entrance exam for a closed list)</div><br><div><div>On Apr 13, 2013, at 7:07 PM, Mark Smith <<a href="mailto:markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au">markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div><div style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-family: 'bookman old style', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; position: static; z-index: auto; "><div>The problem I have with "<span style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </span><span style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt;">Leave it as it is and ignore the fluff" is that that takes effort that I'd much rather (and if the list becomes to full of fluff, will) put into other things. If people walk away because they can't be bothered spending the effort to filter out the fluff, then the list has lost the value that their experience and contributions brings.</span></div><div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; "><span style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br></span></div><div style="font-size: 16px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; "><span style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt;">The whole point of the world having different interest groups and on the Internet separate mailing lists is so that you don't have to put effort into ignoring things that aren't of interest. That is why there is a list charter, and that is why people are forced to read it before subscribing, and why it is sent out every month. I think it is unfair to ask the volunteer moderators to read and then moderate lots emails when the responsibility to comply with the charter is that of the person who sends themr. If people can't control themselves, and forget that by sending an email they're creating effort and an interruption to all the recipients on the list (which may and is likely to number in the 100s), then other
controls need to be put in place.</span></div><div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; "><span style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br></span></div><div style="font-size: 16px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; "><span style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt;">I've been thinking about the idea of a vetted list for more than a year. I don't particularly have a problem with lurkers who are interested to learn either. As I suggested, LinkedIn or similar are a way to perform a basic vetting of somebody's experience and/or knowledge. Somebody who might not have network operator experience or knowledge, but being vouched for by somebody who does would also be
reasonable. </span></div><div><br><blockquote style="border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 5px; position: static; z-index: auto; "> <div style="font-family: 'bookman old style', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <hr size="1"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Phill Groom <<a href="mailto:pgroom@gmail.com">pgroom@gmail.com</a>><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> "<a href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a>" <<a href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a>> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, 14 April 2013 10:30 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [AusNOG] Moderated/Vetted AusNOG list to reduce the guff (was Re: Understanding lack of Aus connectivity to <a href="http://melbournefreeuniversity.org">melbournefreeuniversity.org</a>.)<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container"><br><div id="yiv861057812"><div dir="ltr">I'v been in the industry in both Australia and New Zealand for more years than I care to remember. Some of the prominent contributors to this list know exactly who I am and what I do/have done, however most of the current contributors would not.<div>
<br></div><div style="">If membership of this list were to be vetted then who gets to be "God" and how do those people decide who is "in" and who is "out"? Have to have at least one AS registered in your name? I've never had any in my own name however I've been responsible for some pretty well known ones. Have to have a .net email address? I have tons of those but I don't work on any of those networks at the moment. Check your Linkedin profile/friends? Mine says what I have done and where I am but that could all be made up and total garbage. Rely on word of mouth among other "trusted" contributors? What about the little guy who has never been heard of but who may have control over an AS that could potentially bring down or seriously affect one of the big guys or their customers?</div>
<div style=""><br></div><div style="">I have worked for one of the ISP's that probably is mentioned more on this list than any other for over 30 years however I don't currently have operational control over that network. I manage a customers network. Working for that ISP might be enough to qualify me for membership of the list but should I be a member when I don't have operational or administrative control at the moment?</div>
<div style=""><br></div><div style="">This list is an amazing resource. Leave it as it is and ignore the fluff (as many of you will probably do with this post!).</div><div style=""><br></div><div style="">Phill.</div><div style=""><br>
</div>
<div style=""><br></div></div><div class="yiv861057812gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="yiv861057812gmail_quote">On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 9:33 AM, Tom Paseka <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:tom@cloudflare.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:tom@cloudflare.com">tom@cloudflare.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="yiv861057812gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">I'm not against a more closed, vetted list. <div><br></div><div>Agree that moderation is silly. <div><div class="yiv861057812h5">
<br><br><div class="yiv861057812gmail_quote">On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 4:29 PM, Joshua D'Alton <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:joshua@railgun.com.au" target="_blank" href="mailto:joshua@railgun.com.au">joshua@railgun.com.au</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="yiv861057812gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">The problem with that is it might take 3 hours to get a post moderated. I'd say that is a long time for networks to not be able to 'fix' things. People probably wouldn't bother and would just use IRC or skype or plain email to the contacts they've found through ausnog.<div>
<br></div><div>Are there really that many threads (not posts, threads) on here taking up peoples time to the extent they feel this is necessary?<div><br><br><div class="yiv861057812gmail_quote">On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 9:22 AM, Phillip Grasso <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:phillip.grasso@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:phillip.grasso@gmail.com">phillip.grasso@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="yiv861057812gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div dir="ltr"><div>Most of topics aren't unreasonable, thoughts on setup a smaller list that is concentrated / moderated etc. </div>
<div><br></div><div>I like the format </div><div><br></div><div>
ausnog (mostly network operators). </div><div>ausnog-ops (moderated list australian network operators). </div><div>ausnog-jobs (jobs posting). </div><div>ausnog-trades (sales/buying, trades, borrowing parts etc). </div>
</div><div class="yiv861057812gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="yiv861057812gmail_quote"><div>On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 9:05 AM, Mark Smith <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au" target="_blank" href="mailto:markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au">markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</div><div><blockquote class="yiv861057812gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div><div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'bookman old style', 'new york', times, serif;"><div><span><font size="3">Once off vetting, and then having people control themselves is going to be far less moderation effort than having a small set of moderators have to read each and every email and hit some of them on the head. The threat of losing your </font>privilege<font size="3"> of being able to participate should be enough to make people moderate themselves, or quickly stop if they are told by others that they've crossed the line.</font></span></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;"><span><font size="3"><br></font></span></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;">
<span><font size="3">If issues such as this one need to get into the public domain, they will indirectly.</font></span></div><div style="font-size:12pt;">
<br><blockquote style="border-left:2px solid rgb(16,16,255);margin-left:5px;margin-top:5px;padding-left:5px;"> <div style="font-size:12pt;"> <div style="font-size:12pt;">
<div dir="ltr"> <hr size="1"> <font face="Arial"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> James Hodgkinson <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:yaleman@ricetek.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:yaleman@ricetek.net">yaleman@ricetek.net</a>><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> "<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a>" <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a>> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, 14 April 2013 8:49 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [AusNOG]
Understanding lack of Aus connectivity to <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://melbournefreeuniversity.org/">melbournefreeuniversity.org</a>.<br> </font> </div> <div><br><div><div dir="ltr">No reason to start a new list or "vet" people onto it, just get some moderators who slap down threads and make sure it stays on-topic :)<div>
<div><br></div><div>James</div></div><div><br><br><div>On 13 April 2013 18:28, Bevan Slattery <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:bevan@slattery.net.au" target="_blank" href="mailto:bevan@slattery.net.au">bevan@slattery.net.au</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div style="font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; word-wrap: break-word;"><div><br></div><div><br></div><span><div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; padding: 3pt 0in 0in; text-align: left; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223);">
<span style="font-weight:bold;">From: </span> McDonald Richards <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:McDonald.Richards@vocus.com.au" target="_blank" href="mailto:McDonald.Richards@vocus.com.au">McDonald.Richards@vocus.com.au</a>><br><span style="font-weight:bold;">Date: </span> Saturday, 13 April 2013 5:39 PM<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold;">To: </span> Danny O'Brien <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:danny@spesh.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:danny@spesh.com">danny@spesh.com</a>><br><span style="font-weight:bold;">Cc: </span> "<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a>" <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a>>, Nathan Nogic <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:nathan@mds.au.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:nathan@mds.au.com">nathan@mds.au.com</a>><div>
<br><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject: </span> Re: [AusNOG] Understanding lack of Aus connectivity to <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://melbournefreeuniversity.org/">melbournefreeuniversity.org</a>.<br>
</div></div><div>
<div><br></div><div>> The lack of response is less about conspiracy and more about apathy.</div></div></span><div><br></div><div>Yeah – However, my apathy is not because of journos but because Ausnog is no longer a network operators group, but a splinter of Whirlpool.</div>
<div><br></div><div>It feeling like trying to have an discussion of the NBN in a Whirlpool thread in 2010/11. Anyone for a true Network Operators Group email list? This is just tiring and filling up my inbox…</div><span><font color="#888888"><div>
<br></div><div>[b]</div><span><br></span></font></span></div>
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