<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>I don't outsource, I'm there making a difference by direct employment, creating jobs, giving opportunities and teaching about the networks we run here such as v6 etc, they are not aware if v6 yet and I think that's more important than anything to educate them right? You've been saying all day v4 is dead.</div>
<div><br></div><div>You did have a go directly at me, you raved on how good you were by employing 7 staff offshore and then asked me what I was doing. I never accused you of not doing anything for a developing world did I??</div>
<div><br></div><div>Unfortunately I'm not even going to waste my time reply to the rest of your email, clearly you have not read any of mine properly otherwise you would have seen that at no point was I asking or implying that anything was about 'me me me' ill say it again, I can afford the space if I need to buy it, not once have I said I wanted the low rate for me or anything. I merely stated that the low price in AU will be abused. Again get your facts right before commenting.</div>
<div><br></div><div><br>Regards,<div><br></div><div>Jared Hirst</div><div>Servers Australia Pty Ltd</div><div>Phone: 1300 788 862</div><div>Direct: (02) 4307 4205</div><div>E-mail: <a href="mailto:jared.hirst@serversaustralia.com.au">jared.hirst@serversaustralia.com.au</a></div>
</div><div><br>On 03/03/2013, at 11:03 PM, Skeeve Stevens <<a href="mailto:skeeve+ausnog@eintellegonetworks.com">skeeve+ausnog@eintellegonetworks.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>Jared,<div>
<br></div><div>My point was not what you do or don't do... but your attitude is screaming 'me me me'. Lots of people here use outsourced staff from developing nations (it's not called Third World anymore), so it is nothing amazing. You pay people to do a job. Sure, they might live well, but what are you doing to change India itself? What are you doing to change the future and make things better?</div>
<div><br></div><div>I know a lot of the guys involved in the ISP scene in India... I know quite reasonably what is going on over there... and so do other people who have invested the time, like James Spenceley who has a tonne of dealing with them, especially over the last couple of years in their fight to setup their own IN-NIC.</div>
<div><br></div><div>I am not someone who normally tells people what I do to affect change overseas, but I was accused of not caring about the developing world, when nothing is further from the truth.</div><div><br></div>
<div>
I'm here, arguing for the developing nations... and that the lower APNIC fees will help them... you are only talking about yourself, and how you are affected and that one of the solutions should be that fees are raised.</div>
<div><br></div><div>I am not targeting you in my comments here... It is for anyone who can't get past their own self and needs and think about the wider community. Those who can't see that policies affect everyone differently, and that the 'needs of the many', often outweigh the needs of the entitled few.</div>
<div><br></div><div>My view in relation to Internet Governance and Resources Policy is that I don't really care what rich entitled nations like Australia need right now. I care about developing nations where the lives of hundreds of millions will be affected over the next few years of massive internet growth.</div>
<div><br></div><div>If you do come to APNIC meetings, or do join APNIC SIG Policy, you better come with a perspective of what is best for the whole community - just just your little corner. If you don't, you will experience dozens of nations who will come back at you with force.</div>
<div><br></div><div>To clarify. I am not saying that Jared, Bevan, or anyone else isn't doing enough to help the world in any way. Mine is a calling... something that blends my skills, beliefs and life aims.. It isn't for everyone. What annoys me is when people only seem to argue for themselves without considering those who are far far less fortunate.<br clear="all">
<div><div><br>...Skeeve</div><div><br></div><div><div><b style="font-size:13px;font-family:Calibri">Skeeve Stevens - </b><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:Calibri">eintellego Networks Pty Ltd</span></div><div><div>
<span style="font-family:Calibri;font-size:13px"><a href="mailto:skeeve@eintellegonetworks.com" target="_blank">skeeve@eintellegonetworks.com</a> ; <a href="http://www.eintellegonetworks.com/" target="_blank">www.eintellegonetworks.com</a></span><font><p style="font-family:Calibri;font-size:13px;margin:0px">
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<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 10:17 PM, Jared Hirst <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jared.hirst@serversaustralia.com.au" target="_blank">jared.hirst@serversaustralia.com.au</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Skeeve,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I have 30, yes 30 staff in Kochin India down in Kerala with my outsourcing company (<a href="http://astraeanetworks.com" target="_blank">astraeanetworks.com</a>), a THIRD world country, how dare you judge me based on not even knowing me. So I should say WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING?? You only have 7 staff….I have 30, pick up your game?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I like you have trained them in networking, design, hosting management and many many other things that the western wordd has and they they can only dream of ever learning. I have sent them equipment and also pay DOUBLE the average wage so that their family can eat and sleep at night. I also provide a nice office as I am sure you have seen on my facebook, I provide them with training, trips to Aus and materials that they will NEVER get from anyone in their country. Is that enough to satisfy you?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">India has a truck load of IP’s and I know this first hand because I have a standard business DSL in my apartment there (yes I go there every 3 months to see them, train them and give them help and assistance) and it came with a standard allocation of a /28, so again mis-allocation and training is causing the shortage. They are NOT aware of the shortage and even worse they were not aware of IPv6 till we got there and provided training and equipment for v6.. So keep your smart arse comments to yourself, I have said the WHOLE TIME I am not fighting for me, I can afford space if I need it. I am fighting for the likes of SMALL business that make up a massive portion of Australia’s businesses and ISP’s, those are the ones that cannot afford to just go and pay $10 -$16 / IP and I am saying that it would be good IF they could get from APNIC.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I am truly surprised that you have totally judged me this way and done it on a public list, I now know why so many people don’t post here, it’s like being thrown into a den of tigers. You should be ashamed mate. Next time read my past emails and get the story right before having a go at someone.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal">
<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> <a href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Skeeve Stevens<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, March 03, 2013 10:04 PM<br><b>To:</b> Joshua D'Alton<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusNOG] IPv4</span></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal">
</p><p class="MsoNormal">Because, like most people, he is thinking only about himself and how hard done he is being done by.</p><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I far more care about developing nations... look at India. About 20 million internet users... and hoping to get to 100 million in the next two years. Users in China having to 're-connect' to try and get a real IP address. How the hell are they going to make it happen? But do you know what... they WILL, and without too much whinging.</p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">This is akin you you complaining you don't have enough to eat when people are starving overseas. Really? Get over yourself and suck it up princess.</p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">You have SO much more potential and ability to come up with creative and innovative solutions to deal with these situations compared to dozens of other countries who are struggling with sub-standard infrastructure. You can afford the equipment and expertise they can only dream of.</p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I have 7 engineers in Cambodia who work for me. They live, learn and work on Australia/Western quality networks. I've trained them up to be the best engineers in the country. Under my direction, they also donate time in Cambodia helping KHNOG get started, help ISOC-KH happen, involved in Barcamps, do training for free at schools like Passerelles Numeriques (<a href="http://www.passerellesnumeriques.org/cambodge/" target="_blank">http://www.passerellesnumeriques.org/cambodge/</a>) who train orphans and the poor into becoming engineers (I've hired 4 of them!). I've shipped dozens of peices of equipment to the country to donate to local Cisco training schools and other places. I also allocate my staffs time to helping engineers at all the ISPs in Cambodia get better at what they do - because they very little options to learn how.</p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I HELP the developing world better its infrastructure... I've put my effort and my money where my mouth is - What the hell do you do Jared? Or for that matter, you Bevan, whose squillions could make a HUGE difference... or is there things you've been doing that I don't know? I don't have much, but I give a lot... how many people here have a lot and don't even give a cent?!</p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><br>SERIOUSLY?!</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all"></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><br>...Skeeve</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">
<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Skeeve Stevens - </span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">eintellego Networks Pty Ltd</span></p>
</div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><a href="mailto:skeeve@eintellegonetworks.com" target="_blank">skeeve@eintellegonetworks.com</a> ; <a href="http://www.eintellegonetworks.com/" target="_blank">www.eintellegonetworks.com</a></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve</span></p><p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
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<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in"><~WRD266.jpg></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7f007f">The Experts Who The Experts Call</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#002060">Juniper - Cisco - Cloud</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7f007f"></span></p>
</div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 9:48 PM, Joshua D'Alton <<a href="mailto:joshua@railgun.com.au" target="_blank">joshua@railgun.com.au</a>> wrote:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">It was depleted over 5 years ago.. Why do you think you deserve space any more than they do? I'd argue using IPs for cheap VPS etc is almost as bad as having the IPs routed but not actually past the gateway. In both cases were the cost $10/IP/mo neither business would be that wasteful, or they'd just be on v6.</p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 9:40 PM, Jared Hirst <<a href="mailto:jared.hirst@serversaustralia.com.au" target="_blank">jared.hirst@serversaustralia.com.au</a>> wrote:</p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">+1 to this!</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">As I said before, I only came into the industry 3 years ago for IP space and now I am suffering because others are ‘nesting’ on it rather than handing it back, it’s a shame that so many people have the attitude to just ‘shun’ people like me that are young, have a successful business and did not have the chance to get more space before it was ‘depleted’ to other larger providers or other providers that didn’t really need space but got it anyway. I was not trying to rant before and people really took me out of context and smashed me for no reason, so I am glad someone has put it in a nice long email to be clear. Thanks Bevan!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
</div><div><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From: </span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Skeeve Stevens <<a href="mailto:skeeve+ausnog@eintellegonetworks.com" target="_blank">skeeve+ausnog@eintellegonetworks.com</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Sunday, 3 March 2013 8:04 PM<br><b>To: </b>Nathan Brookfield <<a href="mailto:Nathan.Brookfield@simtronic.com.au" target="_blank">Nathan.Brookfield@simtronic.com.au</a>><br><b>Cc: </b>"<a href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a>" <<a href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [AusNOG] IPv4<br><b>Resent-From: </b>Bevan Slattery <<a href="mailto:bevan.slattery@nextdc.com" target="_blank">bevan.slattery@nextdc.com</a>></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">"Basically yes. But get over it." </span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Sorry Skeeve, but that's a disgraceful attitude. Many on this list seems to think "we're so freakin' smart we went ahead and gorged ourselves on IP addresses to the detriment of the global community and now we are making a motza from it. Sucks to be you for not seeing this coming".</span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Well here's the news flash – everyone who thinks themselves soooo clever and smug are frankly obtuse and their level of arrogance disgusts me. You think everyone without IPv4 space has only themselves to blame – remarks that seem to be coming from middle aged people working for providers greater than 5 years old in a developed economy who have been in the industry for years.</span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">So Skeeve and others, I'd like to go to Iraq, or Afghanistan or Somalia and tell them that they have no address space and sucks to be them because they were too stupid not to see the IPv4 coming. Disregard that it's mainly because they were too busy fighting a war, trying to find food for their family or too busy walking kilometres to go to a mud hut with a chalk board for a "iPad" 5 years ago.</span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Or how about you go visit people in China and India who have 2,000,000,000 people trying to lift themselves out of some of the lowest wages ever and despite being so desperate to get connected to the internet to find their way to "freedom" and information – yes – freedom and information you know that thing the internet provides (?) and let them know they've despite having 1/3 of the worlds population you're getting shafted because the Shinhwa news agency didn't let them know there was an IPv4 crunch coming. Dare you to put an ad in the paper and invite all those Chinese people to who can't connect to come down the "the square" to talk to you about why they can't.</span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">While you're at it, go into a tech incubator or anyone who is in their late teens/early 20's who dare to do what we do and start an ISP and tell them "sucks to be you – I've effectively lied my ass off to APNIC and the other RIR's to get my hands on a life supply of IPv4 and relied on their pathetic IPv4 management systems to starve your hard earned start up dollars and your future while I make huge $$ because I have no conscience! ".</span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">So the plan seems to be "we're going to screw the youth/up and coming countries and developing countries and sell our IP's to them and IPv6 isn't going to get traction until they are bleeding out of their noses and they die on the floor. Sanctioned extortion effectively. We're putting a price on their future and freedom. How smart are we."</span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">The hubris and arrogance here simply disgusts me and even worse, those that lied their ass off to steal more addresses than they needed are now playing mercenary to the future development of our youth or developing countries. What makes it worse It's coming from people who are involved in the RIR's and the lack of compassion and disdain being displayed is frankly beneath what the internet community is all about.</span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">I expected a lot more from a lot of middle aged people who were all young once and were given a chance. Screw your arrogance and hubris. Get your head out of your arses and travel the world and see what the power and freedom the internet and IPv4 provides – at least for the next 5 years and remember that you too were young once and that the only reason your so god-damn smart is because he you managed to fallout of a womans uterus in a lucky country.</span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">If you can't read between the lines call me and I'll make it very clear how pathetic your attitude is.</span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">[b]</span></p>
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