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<title>RE: [AusNOG] NBN Legislation</title>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Really sorry about last post, replied to list instead of
directly.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>S.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net
[mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Tom Sykes<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 1 December 2010 11:35 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Steve Lisson; Curtis Bayne<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ausnog@ausnog.net<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusNOG] NBN Legislation<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Hi Steve,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Not sure if you came to AusNOG this year, but NBN Co had 2
speaking slots (I was one of them) to try and raise some awareness about where
we are up to. We plan to continue doing this, through bilateral meetings and
forums like AusNOG and the Communications Alliance.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Having been in a few hundred hours of meetings with ISPs in the
last 12 months I think this may simply be a case of you needing to being in
touch with the right people.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>If you are interested, email me off list and I will put you in
touch with the right folk.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Tom.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net
[mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Lisson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 1 December, 2010 2:36 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Curtis Bayne<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ausnog@ausnog.net<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusNOG] NBN Legislation<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>For starters, I will note that the NBN people have not had its
operations group active on this list and would have loved to have seen that, I
see that as a flaw (just like people keep on going on about lack of ‘business
case’), they have not been open, but I can also see that as a result of the
government taking control of an issue and the people working for said NBN Co
being at the whim of the government, that is part of the cost of the government
taking control of such an issue like this.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>There will be people who lose out due to this, but think there
would probably be more who would be worse off if they didn’t and I’m probably a
commie at heart </span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Wingdings;color:navy'>J</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>The people who are setting this up are basically now (although not
in job description as they are employed by a ‘company’) civil servants and
their position largely dependant on not saying ‘something stupid’ publically,
much more so than the average company executive as they are in the centre of a
political issue that affects more people than the average company, if they did
get involved here they would likely be out of a job quickly due to negativity
of the entities here who are here that have more power due to their personal
net worth. (e.g. I expect this to have substantially less weight due to being a
‘little person’ than the goliath Bevan (no disrespect there, just trying to
make a point and you spring to mind, Hi!, think have met all of once in the
elevator).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>You may hate me for this but I am for the NBN, even if costs more
than what would cost a commercial entity to do so as think it will realise
better results overall than what any commercial roll-out would do, have been
very surprised by their target percentage.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-bottom:double windowtext 2.25pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>I have _<i>NO</i>_ confidence in the private sector (apart from
Telstra if it wasn’t split _<i>but</i>_ it would be to the detriment to both
other telcos and especially to consumers and that is a whole other theoretical
conversation) to achieve the speeds desired or required later on in the
residential space, from an email was considering sending earlier:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Lets
take for example my connection.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Moved
in to current house I am renting around 2 or so years ago, when moved in was
unsure if could get ADSL1 until I had actually moved in, had the phone
connected and could apply. The only other viable option would have been Telstra
cable which I did not personally want to use.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-bottom:double windowtext 2.25pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Then
wanted to upgrade to ADSL2, majority of providers are unable to provide it (no
ports) and the ones that could did not have a plan that suited me and only
recently upgraded (1-2 months ago), utilizing resources not available to the
average end user to get what I wanted, and when I did upgrade I had very little
idea of what speed I would be able to achieve (was pleasantly surprised to get
10mbit, was expecting significantly lower).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>I believe it _<i>should</i>_ already be better than this. At least
with the NBN you will know when moving to a location you will know if it is
there or not and that it will be rolled out at some point if not already.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>While I do not agree with some of what they are doing (e.g. gpon,
L2 (but that is just personal and can not currently see how L3 deployment could
work without NBN doing more than they will already need to)), but that is the _<i>cost</i>_
of government getting involved to rectify an issue.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>All I can see is that telco’s would only keep rolling out DSL,
particularly in established areas and attempting to get the copper network to
go faster and faster (vDSL) while masking the underlying bit error rate as they
try to deal with more and more cross-talk and consumers being even more unaware
of the service they could expect when ordering.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Feel free to discuss this on-list, off-list or at the pub (first
Tuesday of month next Tuesday and will be at P&W on Eagle, Brisbane with
‘crew’). I would very much like for someone to sit down with me over a couple
of drinks and discuss why (as an advantage to Australian society) is better than
what is occurring. I am sure I am likely missing some major key facts and very
willing to listen.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>I would also like to put forward that we start discussing ways to
leverage what looks to be a given in ways that would be an advantage of
Australians and businesses, I do have a couple (and I do mean two, not a rough
couple) of ideas I would like to explore when the NBN nears/reaches ‘critical
mass’ and I would be surprised if no-one else has thought of them (and explores
with funding they have that I don’t).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Anyway, that’s my Tuesday rant to someone </span><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:navy'>J</span><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span lang=EN-US>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net
[mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Curtis Bayne<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 29 November 2010 12:27 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> John Edwards; vak<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ausnog@ausnog.net<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusNOG] NBN Legislation</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt'>We've
already begun divesting our carriage-related assets and ceased regional roll
out in August, straight after the election. From what I've read, we're not the
only provider to be doing so - the advice my fellow management types are
receiving from their advisers and boards are the same as what we're getting:
get out now.<br>
<br>
Banks refuse to give any money given the regulatory uncertainty. Any other
investment capital is only accessible at ridiculous interest because of the
increased risk. The NBN has rewarded the tyre-kicking, bottom-feeding resellers
who have contributed NOTHING to infrastructure in this country and punished
those who have risked significant amounts of capital to further telco
endeavors.<br>
<br>
For anyone considering investing in their own infrastructure in Australia, I
have one piece of advice for you:<br>
<br>
Bring lube.<br>
<br>
<br>
-C<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net on behalf of John Edwards<br>
Sent: Mon 11/29/2010 12:09 PM<br>
To: vak<br>
Cc: ausnog@ausnog.net<br>
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] NBN Legislation<br>
<br>
<br>
On 29/11/2010, at 9:45 AM, vak wrote:<br>
<br>
> Many people have claimed the stifling of innovation as a reason why we<br>
> should not have the NBN.<br>
><br>
> I would argue the exact opposite. The NBN will stimulate new ideas and<br>
> products. Those who generate new ideas today will be the winners in the<br>
> next decade - its an opportunity we must not sqander.<br>
<br>
<br>
History shows that on the ASX at least, the successful carriers in Australia
are those that have deployed their own infrastructure. This is generally
considered to be "innovating" by press releases, as it allows these
carriers to change the market they're in, and more importantly have a
significant competitive and technical advantage over resellers.<br>
<br>
With the NBN, this opportunity is no more. We're back to the dialup days where
the difference between services was marginal because everyone connected over
the same basic infrastructure.<br>
<br>
I'm not sure that this is a bad thing in most cases, but there are plenty of
opportunities for history to repeat itself. Some group of investors may decide
that it's a great idea to buy market share by selling an unlimited product
below cost (they will also be heralded as "innovative"), which is
going to upset the industry as customers flock to the better deal or expect
their provider to match it. This will happen right up until they inevitably go
bust - complete with a chorus of I-told-you-so's by pundits and debts to
wholesalers including the NBN. The new problem for industry with that scenario
is that this time around the government is involved and will need to be seen to
be "doing something".<br>
<br>
There's also the regional areas - it seems that this part of the legislation
penalises anyone who would dare to compete with the wireless or satellite parts
of the NBN by providing a city-equivalent service.<br>
<br>
I am not opposed to the NBN, but I am opposed to uncertainty that results in
people not getting broadband. Legislation that basically prevents anyone from
legally deploying an interim solution better have a really good reason attached
to it.<br>
<br>
John<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
AusNOG mailing list<br>
AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net<br>
<a href="http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog">http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog</a></span><span
lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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