<html><head><base href="x-msg://313/"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hi Skeeve.<div><br></div><div>Remember, this is a political issue, not a technical issue. So...</div><div><br><div><div>On 18/07/2010, at 8:08 PM, Skeeve Stevens wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div lang="EN-AU" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; ">I just think we have to be realistic about what we can and can�t fight. </span></div></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Not sure if you've noticed, but some of us have been <i>successfully</i> fighting</div><div>it for three years, to the extent that the Government has been unable to </div><div>gain any traction on the issue for the entirety of their first term.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div lang="EN-AU" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; "> Filtering is fine as long as we aren�t all made to do it. If we aren�t made to do it, many of us won�t care, but I do think many of us would introduce product support anyway.</span></div></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div>Yes, that's a worthy position to take.</div><div><br></div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div lang="EN-AU" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">What we have here is an issue to address. It won�t go away. If it isn�t now, it will be later. There is clearly a desire and a need from a certain segment of the community for some sort of filtering � whether we like it or not.</span></div></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div>It will go away -- See my comments about generational change starting</div><div>at the beginning of my submission here:</div><div><a href="http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/jscc/subs/sub_15.pdf">http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/jscc/subs/sub_15.pdf</a></div><div><br></div><div>It's interesting that you're taking something that was entirely unthinkable</div><div>just three years ago and now viewing as so inevitable that it isn't worth</div><div>fighting anymore.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-AU" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; ">I do NOT believe desktop filtering is a viable option... it is just too easy to get around and the burden on the parents to manage it when they often barely understand what their kids are doing - is just too much to ask.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Bearing in mind that in saying that you've just made a technical argument</div><div>in a political debate...</div><div><br></div><div>Getting around ISP censorware is <i>easier</i> than getting around PC filters.</div><div>No matter what you do with your ISP censorware, I can (and, in all likelihood,</div><div>will) host an online service which implements countermeasures specific to</div><div><i>your</i> controls which can be accessed effortlessly via a standard web browser</div><div>in approximately zero seconds.</div><div><br></div><div>PC filters don't have that attribute.</div><div><br></div><div>Mounting an argument that says PC filters aren't viable because they're</div><div>easy to bypass is the same pig-ignorant rubbish the ALP used to kick-start</div><div>their policy in the first place. It's objectively wrong, and should be denounced</div><div>as such.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-AU" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; ">What I do support is however, is a government that financially supports ISP�s who wish to be 100% a filtered ISP, or those wishing to offer filtering products. This can be done with discounted equipment, tax breaks, advertising and advise support (<a href="http://www.filterme.gov.au" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">www.filterme.gov.au</a>) or something like this.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>What I support is not having the Government involved at all; or, if they</div><div>must be involved, having safeguards in place to limit their involvement.</div><div><br></div><div>Again: This is a political argument. If you accept that this is a legitimate</div><div>area of Government involvement, you'll never get them out of it, and</div><div>we'll spend the next 10 - 15 years resisting their inevitable efforts to </div><div>tighten the screws.</div><div><br></div><div>That's why we're fighting this debate now in the first place: The previous</div><div>Government established a foothold, legitimising governmental involvement</div><div>in PC filters (which, as far as I can tell, is a position unique in the Western</div><div>world -- And probably the Eastern world too, given that the Chinese haven't</div><div>been able to pull off Green Dam yet)</div><div><br></div><div>Because we let them establish that foothold, we're now paying the </div><div>consequences: A decade down the track we have a new Government</div><div>which says that the involvement of politicians in PC filtering has been</div><div>a failure, and now we need to segue that involvement into ISPs instead.</div><div><br></div><div>The important thing to note here is that the argument we're having now</div><div>is an absolute, 100% consequence of the argument we lost in 1999.</div><div><br></div><div>So, you have to ask: If we accept and legitimise Governmental</div><div>involvement in ISP censorware now (even limited involvement, such as</div><div>funding it), what consequences will that produce in another decade?</div><div>Given that we know with complete certainty that ISP censorware isn't</div><div>going to have any impact at all on availability of internet content to </div><div>Australians, we also know with complete certainty that the next party</div><div>that wins Government will want to kick this one for doing something</div><div>pointless, and will want to have an alternative policy in place which</div><div>demands something "pointful." </div><div><br></div><div>What do you envisage that policy will look like? </div><div><br></div><div>Pretty sure I can tell you. You can probably tell me too.</div><div><br></div><div>The correct answer, in my view, is to accept that if there is a market need</div><div>then some ISPs may want to fill it; But that the government has no role</div><div>in making it happen. If Telstra, Optus and Primus want to bring along </div><div>censored services next year, then so be it -- But we should be very careful</div><div>about the acceptability of governmental involvement, particularly given</div><div>that we know what the government actually wants and will actually be</div><div>trying to do.</div><div><br></div><div>Putting the message into soundbite form: "Only an idiot would believe</div><div>that the previous Government's inability to demonstrate that filtering</div><div>serves any useful purpose is a legitimate reason to do more of it."</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-AU" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; ">If you take a look at Webshield (<a href="http://www.webshield.com.au" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">www.webshield.com.au</a>), they are a perfect example of how I think this could work.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Yep -- And with the benefit of three years of free publicity AND involvement</div><div>of their managing director on the Government's Cyber Safety Advisory </div><div>Committee AND the Australian dealership of Watchdog/8e6 products,</div><div>Webshield <i>still</i> only has approximately 6000 customers Australia-wide.</div><div><br></div><div>As a niche provider for the professed needs of the Christadelphian community</div><div>group, they're great and should have every success. They're also <i>already</i></div><div><i>available</i>, demonstrating that governmental involvement isn't actually</div><div>needed to "solve" this "problem."</div><div><br></div><div>But they're <i>not</i> a perfect example of something that can or should be touted</div><div>as a one stop shop for normal Australian families.</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-AU" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; ">If a parent is worried about what their kids can do, then they should sign up for a �filtered� ISP or ISP product. </span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Well, no. If a parent is worried about what their kids can do, then they should</div><div>parent their children.</div><div><br></div><div>We expect that in literally <i>every other sphere of parental life.</i> I can't think of</div><div>anywhere where we let parents say, "It's all too hard, I'm not going to do </div><div>anything," without involving the Department of Family Services.</div><div><br></div><div>Conroy says the Internet "is not special." He should put his money where</div><div>his mouth is: If it ain't special, then it should have the same demands for</div><div>parental involvement that everything else has.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-AU" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; "> This means the parents don�t have to worry about what is going on with their kids computers at home or school (should they join up).</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>It is grossly irresponsible to send that message, Skeeve.</div><div><br></div><div>(something Webshield still hasn't learned, incidentally -- their customer</div><div>testimonial page is just terrible, and has been for years:</div><div><a href="http://www.webshield.net.au/about-us/testimonials/">http://www.webshield.net.au/about-us/testimonials/</a> )</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-AU" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; ">We�ve talked about the many ways people can get past filtering.</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#1F497D" face="Calibri, sans-serif" size="4"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 15px;"><br></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">But, if you had an ISP like Webshield (and I am sure 50 would spring up over night, that specialised in filtering), then you could deal with nearly all of the above by locking things down big time.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Nope, not happening. Read up about "covert channels," and have a think</div><div>about how someone who knows what they're doing can use them to </div><div>provide censored users with uncensored access.</div><div><br></div><div>It ain't rocket surgery.</div><div><br></div><div>And, again: It's irresponsible of you to send that message.</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-AU" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; ">This kind of product, or ISP is what I would be happy to see the government throw some money at.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Policy positions ought not be dictated by what is easy for the Government</div><div>to throw money at.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-AU" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; ">I believe this deals with most of our objections.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Speak for yourself.</div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-AU" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; ">Those who don�t want to be filtered, don�t have to be. Those that want a certain level, or fully filtered, can join an ISP whose specific job it is to do that. Those ISP�s that don�t have the hardware can�t be made to do it by project/legal creep.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>You, Sir, are dreaming. Think long term, and remember how we got to where</div><div>we are today.</div><div><br></div><div> - mark</div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Andale Mono'" size="1"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 9px;"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Helvetica"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;"><br></span></font></span></font></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Andale Mono'" size="1"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 9px; ">--</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Andale Mono'"><font class="Apple-style-span" size="1"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 9px; ">Mark Newton Email: <a href="mailto:newton@internode.com.au">newton@internode.com.au</a> (W)</span></font></font></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Andale Mono'"><font class="Apple-style-span" size="1"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 9px; ">Network Engineer Email: <a href="mailto:newton@atdot.dotat.org">newton@atdot.dotat.org</a> (H)</span></font></font></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Andale Mono'"><font class="Apple-style-span" size="1"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 9px; ">Internode Pty Ltd Desk: +61-8-82282999</span></font></font></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Andale Mono'"><font class="Apple-style-span" size="1"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 9px; ">"Network Man" - Anagram of "Mark Newton" Mobile: +61-416-202-223</span></font></font></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Andale Mono'"><font class="Apple-style-span" size="1"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 9px; "><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></span></font></font></font></div></div></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span>
</div>
<br></div></body></html>