<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
<meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)">
<base href="x-msg://312/">
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Helvetica;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"\0027Andale Mono\0027";
panose-1:0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.apple-style-span
{mso-style-name:apple-style-span;}
span.EmailStyle18
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page Section1
{size:612.0pt 792.0pt;
margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body lang=EN-AU link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space'>
<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>An awesome enlightening post Mark... <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#002060'>--<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#002060'>Skeeve Stevens, CEO/Technical Director<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#002060'>eintellego Pty Ltd - The Networking Specialists<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#002060'>skeeve@eintellego.net / www.eintellego.net<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#002060'>Phone: 1300 753 383, Fax: (+612) 8572 9954<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#002060'>Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 / skype://skeeve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#002060'>www.linkedin.com/in/skeeve ; facebook.com/eintellego<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#002060'>--<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#002060'>NOC, NOC, who's there?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt'>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net
[mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark Newton<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 4 January 2010 4:42 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Skeeve Stevens<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Pinkerton, Eric; ausnog@lists.ausnog.net<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusNOG] Conroy announcement on filtering<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On 04/01/2010, at 3:40 PM, Skeeve Stevens wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><span style='font-size:11.5pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>If I was the government, I
would basically offer $$$ (or a tax break, or something) to ISPs who chose to
join a filtering programme or offered products based on some sort of filtering
standard.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal>SAGE-AU suggested something along those lines over a year ago,
it fell <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>on deaf ears.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Note that the Internet industry itself has been totally
deficient in coming up<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>with (or endorsing) alternative proposals. Most of the
big ISPs haven't been<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>able to get out of their way quickly enough to make
public statements about how<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>they applaud the Government's efforts in this area, and the
small ISPs have <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>barely said anything at all. Disappointing, but
completely expected.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><span style='font-size:11.5pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>If users are really screaming
for this, surely they would just go and connect to an ISP who is offering the
filtering solution.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><span style='font-size:11.5pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>If there were really a
massive demand for this, wouldn’t someone have developed their own
product by now and selling tons of it?</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Webshield has existed for years. They have about 3500
customers, nation-wide.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>So there's your anticipated market size. Customer
demand is virtually zero, so<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>nobody should be surprised by any disinterest shown by
developers in this<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>space.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> Or.. is this just the government not trusting people to be
adults and responsible – and assuming that there are paedophiles
everywhere.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal>We'll see this in a number of issues that come down the pike
in the next<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>few years:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>The ALP left and the ALP right generally have more or less
consistent visions<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>for how they expect society to work. But they take
very different paths to <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>implement that vision.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>In general terms, the left take the view that if they
elucidate a compelling vision<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>and use Government to provide incentives to empower
people to achieve it,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>most people will, out of their own good graces, pick up the
incentives and play<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>along.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Also in general terms, the right take the view that society
is too dumb,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>unimaginative and riven with special interests to behave
like that, so they use<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>the Government to set rules which penalize failure to attain
the vision.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>The right is currently in charge. The online
censorship policy is the right's<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>way of implementing their desire to facilitate a "civil
and confident society."<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>They do this by making sure that anything uncivil is
criminalized, rather than<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>by supporting civility and encouraging confidence among the
Australian <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>population (and they also ignore ACMA's research which shows
that<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Australians are civil and confident online already)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>We'll see this story repeat when copyright comes up:
The progressive<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>way of dealing with copyright is to provide incentives for
artists so that<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>creativity can continue to flourish while the
business/marketing/promotional<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>side of creative industries flounders until they sort out
their new business<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>models. The conservative way of dealing with copyright
is to slowly <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>screw-down the restrictions and amp-up the penalties so that
behaving in<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>a way which doesn't support existing copyright business
models becomes<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>increasingly illegal and risky. The right wingers are
in charge, so we're<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>going to get the conservative approach -- for all the same
reasons that<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>they're trying to implement censorship. The ideology
is the same, the<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>effects will be the same too.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>In short, the left behaves as if laws are supposed to
support and encourage<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>"good" behaviours; The right behaves as if
people will change "bad" <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>behaviours in response to laws. Are the citizens
controlling the Government,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>or is the Government controlling the citizens? As the
"V for Vendetta" tagline<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>said, "People should not be afraid of their
governments, governments should<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>be afraid of the people."<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>While the right is currently ascendent, history will show
that their approach<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>is wrong, and that the laws they pass won't be worth jack
ten years from<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>now, that their implementation will oscillate between
catastrophic and <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>hilariously incompetent, and that the only tangible outcome
they'll achieve<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>is to burn long-term goodwill.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>But we citizens are going to go through a lot of pain as we
collectively teach<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>them that lesson. And because the right is such a
bunch of control<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>freaks who neither know nor care what they're doing,
the ISP industry is<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>going to bear much of the brunt of it too.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>That's why I think the industry's continual efforts to
appease the Government<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>are misplaced. The Government isn't even remotely
interested in dealing<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>with ISPs in good faith. Conroy treats the ISP
industry with total contempt<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>right now, how could it possibly be any worse if the
industry was actively<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>opposing what he's doing?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> - mark<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"'Andale Mono'","serif";
color:black'><br>
<span class=apple-style-span>--</span></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;
font-family:"'Andale Mono'","serif";color:black'>Mark Newton
Email: <a href="mailto:newton@internode.com.au">newton@internode.com.au</a>
(W)</span></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;
font-family:"'Andale Mono'","serif";color:black'>Network Engineer
Email: <a href="mailto:newton@atdot.dotat.org">newton@atdot.dotat.org</a>
(H)</span></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;
font-family:"'Andale Mono'","serif";color:black'>Internode Pty Ltd
Desk: +61-8-82282999</span></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;
font-family:"'Andale Mono'","serif";color:black'>"Network Man" -
Anagram of "Mark Newton" Mobile: +61-416-202-223</span></span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>