<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br><div><div>On 01/08/2008, at 11:36 AM, McDonald Richards wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div lang="EN-AU" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div class="Section1"><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Then perhaps we’re all arguing about the wrong things and we should start holding our vendors more accountable for sh*t product or become more involved in the IETF to stop poorly spec’d protocols :)</span></div></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The vendors that are the main problem are the CPE vendors for home ADSL equipment.</div><div><br></div><div>IETF doesn't have much oversight of a whole lot of application specific protocols. There's more to this internet thing than just the IETF.</div><div><br></div><div>MMC</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div lang="EN-AU" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div class="Section1"><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div><div style="border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0cm; padding-bottom: 0cm; padding-left: 0cm; "><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Matthew Moyle-Croft [<a href="mailto:mmc@internode.com.au" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mailto:mmc@internode.com.au</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, 1 August 2008 12:01 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>McDonald Richards<br><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>'Chris Chaundy';<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:ausnog@ausnog.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">ausnog@ausnog.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [AusNOG] IPv4 Exhaustion, APNIC EC, and James is a nice bloke ; -)<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On 01/08/2008, at 11:20 AM, McDonald Richards wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Because by participating in the protocol you are indicating adherence to the specification where as NAT is just a giant hack.</span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">My point (again) is that both are bits of software that are going to be equally poorly implemented - so we're actually no better off.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Esp where a protocol has no formal definition or is very loose in definition.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">MMC<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><br><br><br></span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-style: solid; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0cm; padding-bottom: 0cm; padding-left: 0cm; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; "><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black; ">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black; "> </span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black; ">Matthew Moyle-Croft [<a href="mailto:mmc@internode.com.au" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mailto:mmc@internode.com.au</a>]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, 1 August 2008 11:47 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>McDonald Richards<br><b>Cc:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>'Chris Chaundy';<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:ausnog@ausnog.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">ausnog@ausnog.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [AusNOG] IPv4 Exhaustion, APNIC EC, and James is a nice bloke ; -)</span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="color: black; "> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="color: black; ">For Application level proxying see my comments below about poor software and protocol implementations. Why would it be ANY better when you're just going to see broken proxy implementations vs broken NAT vs broken stateful firewalls.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="color: black; "> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="color: black; ">MMC<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="color: black; "> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="color: black; ">On 01/08/2008, at 11:13 AM, McDonald Richards wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="color: black; "><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="color: black; ">> So application level proxying is okay but NAT isn't? (*MMC looks around to check it's a joke he's not in on*)<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Normally when proxying you adhere more closely to the protocol specifications you’re supporting rather than having to rely on port forwarding to “fix” issues introduced by NAT. Since a proxy actually participates in signalling, it’s less likely to cause the problems NAT does (unreachable addresses contained inside signalling messages etc).</span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">There is no reason that equipment cannot be given a global address if required, this just allows the extra layer of security that having a non-routable address gives us.</span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div><div style="border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-style: solid; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0cm; padding-bottom: 0cm; padding-left: 0cm; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; "><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black; ">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black; "> </span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black; "><a href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@ausnog.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">ausnog-bounces@ausnog.net</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@ausnog.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mailto:ausnog-bounces@ausnog.net</a>]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Matthew Moyle-Croft<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, 1 August 2008 11:35 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Chris Chaundy<br><b>Cc:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:ausnog@ausnog.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">ausnog@ausnog.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [AusNOG] IPv4 Exhaustion, APNIC EC, and James is a nice bloke ; -)</span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="color: black; "> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="color: black; "> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="color: black; ">On 01/08/2008, at 10:59 AM, Chris Chaundy wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="color: black; "><br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy; ">It’s a while since I’ve had to deal with this, but as I understand it, there are protocols that embed addressing and port information in payloads which need to be fiddled if there is/are NAT(s) in the path. If the extended address space offered by IPv6 allows us to escape from the NAT ‘functionality’ (and we just have firewall security), then there is no need for any fiddling.</span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="color: black; "> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="color: black; ">But stateful firewalls still need to understand the protocol. Not understanding it properly still leads to a lack of connectivity (or too much) will still means it doesn't work and leads to problems and frustrations by the customers.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="color: black; "> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="color: black; ">I'm just pointing out here that NAT isn't the problem. It's badly written software and poorly defined/implemented protocols no matter what shape/flavour they are. Getting rid of NAT and using stateful firewalls just paints the fence a different colour.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="color: black; "> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy; "> </span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy; ">Of course, as Macca pointed out, proxying will probably be the way things will go for most applications in the future anyway.</span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="color: black; "> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="color: black; ">So application level proxying is okay but NAT isn't? (*MMC looks around to check it's a joke he's not in on*)<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="color: black; "> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="color: black; ">MMC<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="color: black; "> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy; "> </span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black; ">-----Original Message-----<br><b>From:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Matthew Moyle-Croft [<a href="mailto:mmc@internode.com.au" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mailto:mmc@internode.com.au</a>]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, 1 August 2008 11:07 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Chris Chaundy<br><b>Cc:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:ausnog@ausnog.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">ausnog@ausnog.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [AusNOG] IPv4 Exhaustion, APNIC EC, and James is a nice bloke ; -)</span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black; "> </span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black; ">Stateful firewalls (the solution touted as required for CPE) still appear to require an understanding of the protocols going through them - to understand the "state" of a protocol and what connections can/should be opened up.</span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black; "> </span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black; ">Remind me then how the protocol tweaking will decline? </span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black; "> </span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black; ">MMC</span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black; "> </span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black; "> </span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black; ">On 01/08/2008, at 10:08 AM, Chris Chaundy wrote:</span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black; "> </span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black; ">A further comment on this topic - I agree entire on the comments<br>regarding accessibility versus addressability. One of the problems with<br>NAT is all the tweaking needed for some protocols that 'break the rules'<br>as far as layering of protocols go by embedding information about lower<br>layers in higher layers which leads to complexity which inevitably leads<br>to bugs.<br><br>While IPv6 is may problematic for some of these protocols, it is a<br>problem that will have to be solved, and once solved, NAT (and the<br>tweaking) will no longer be necessary when we have sufficient address<br>space (well in the perfect world anyway :-). Long live the KISS<br>principle...<br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@ausnog.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">ausnog-bounces@ausnog.net</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@ausnog.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mailto:ausnog-bounces@ausnog.net</a>] On<br>Behalf Of Mark Newton<br>Sent: Friday, 1 August 2008 8:51 AM<br>To: Robert Brockway<br>Cc:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:ausnog@ausnog.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">ausnog@ausnog.net</a><br>Subject: Re: [AusNOG] IPv4 Exhaustion, APNIC EC, and James is a nice<br>bloke ;-)<br><br><br>On 01/08/2008, at 1:11 AM, Robert Brockway wrote:</span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black; "> </span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black; ">Please excuse me if I'm wrong but it seems like you are equating</span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black; ">'publically accessible' to 'publically addressable'. They need not </span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black; ">be the</span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black; ">same thing as per earlier parts of the thread.</span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black; "><br>There's a certain amount of cross-purposes discussion going on here.<br><br>I don't think anyone is equating the two issues in the way you've<br>described. It might be useful for you to assume that those in this<br>thread who have taken a contrary view have a full and complete<br>understanding of the problem and simply disagree with you.<br><br>Let me expand on it just slightly, by way of illustration.<br><br>Lets say you have some firewall code in your CPE. That's something<br>that controls "accessibility."<br><br>And lets also say you have some NAT code in your CPE. That's something<br>that controls "addressability."<br><br>Flows passing through the CPE are NAT'ed (re-addressed), and also<br>passed through the firewall. That seems to be the typical way that<br>most CPE works; Whether you're talking about a Cisco or a Billion,<br>the stateful inspection configuration stanzas and internal code paths<br>are different beasts.<br><br>Now -- Lets assume you're using cheap and nasty CPE that has<br>firmware that's of, shall we say, variable quality.<br><br>If the firewall is buggy, it'll incorrectly block some traffic and<br>incorrectly pass other traffic. The one Bevan is worried about is<br>incorrectly passing traffic to his fridge -- i.e., making an<br>incorrect decision about whether his fridge should be accessible.<br><br>Separately:<br><br>If the NAT code is buggy, it'll incorrectly translate inside<br>addresses to outside addresses. The degenerate, almost inevitable<br>case is that devices on the "inside" won't have an network access<br>due to NAT bugs.<br><br>Now consider each facility being present or not present individually,<br>and consider the failure modes.<br><br>In the presence of bugs on a device that has NAT and no firewall,<br>devices inside your network won't have network access.<br><br>In the presence of bugs on a device that has a firewall and no<br>NAT, incorrect decisions regarding accessibility will be made and<br>Bevan's fridge will conceivably be reachable from the outside.<br><br>In the presence of bugs on a device that has a firewall and NAT,<br>incorrect decisions regarding accessibility won't matter very<br>much because nothing on the inside is addressable, or, consequently,<br>reachable; and NAT failures will -still- cause devices inside<br>your network to not have network access.<br><br>So -- although NAT != security, what NAT *does* do is make your<br>firewall fail-safe. The preference in the event of a bug when<br>NAT is present is to deny access. The preference in the event of<br>a bug without NAT is to either incorrectly permit or incorrectly<br>deny, depending on the bug. NAT is, therefore, a net gain, and<br>a marginal improvement on the quality of the security provided<br>by the solution.<br><br>Now, I'm not emotionally attached to NAT, and I don't think its<br>inevitable culling in an IPv6 world represents a huge problem. But<br>I think you're making a mistake by suggesting that taking away<br>NAT makes no difference because protecting the network is the firewall's<br>job. We don't live in an ideal world, and some CPE firmware is so<br>badly tested that it won't even boot, so I don't think you can trust<br>the firewall. So what does that leave you with?<br><br><br><br></span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black; ">I would not allow my</span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black; ">appliances to be publically accessible but I'm fine with them being</span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black; ">publically addressable.</span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black; "><br>What about when your firewall is buggy? Is it ok then?<br><br><br> - mark<br><br>--<br>Mark Newton Email:<br><a href="mailto:newton@internode.com.au" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">newton@internode.com.au</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br> (W)<br>Network Engineer Email: <br><a href="mailto:newton@atdot.dotat.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">newton@atdot.dotat.org</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span> (H)<br>Internode Systems Pty Ltd Desk: +61-8-82282999<br>"Network Man" - Anagram of "Mark Newton" Mobile: +61-416-202-223<br><br><br><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>AusNOG mailing list<br><a href="mailto:AusNOG@ausnog.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">AusNOG@ausnog.net</a><br><a href="http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog</a><br>_______________________________________________<br>AusNOG mailing list<br><a href="mailto:AusNOG@ausnog.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">AusNOG@ausnog.net</a><br><a href="http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog</a></span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black; "> </span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 7pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: black; ">-- <br>Matthew Moyle-Croft Internode/Agile Peering and Core Networks<br>Level 4, 150 Grenfell Street, Adelaide, SA 5000 Australia<br>Email:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:mmc@internode.com.au" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mmc@internode.com.au</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span> Web: <a href="http://www.on.net/" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.on.net</a><br>Direct: +61-8-8228-2909<span class="apple-tab-span"> </span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span> Mobile: +61-419-900-366<br>Reception: +61-8-8228-2999 Fax: +61-8-8235-6909</span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black; "> </span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="color: black; "> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: black; ">-- <br>Matthew Moyle-Croft Internode/Agile Peering and Core Networks<br>Level 4, 150 Grenfell Street, Adelaide, SA 5000 Australia<br>Email:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:mmc@internode.com.au" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mmc@internode.com.au</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span> Web: <a href="http://www.on.net/" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.on.net</a><br>Direct: +61-8-8228-2909<span class="apple-tab-span"> </span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span> Mobile: +61-419-900-366<br>Reception: +61-8-8228-2999 Fax: +61-8-8235-6909</span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="color: black; "> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="color: black; "> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: black; ">-- <br>Matthew Moyle-Croft Internode/Agile Peering and Core Networks<br>Level 4, 150 Grenfell Street, Adelaide, SA 5000 Australia<br>Email:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:mmc@internode.com.au" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mmc@internode.com.au</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span> Web: <a href="http://www.on.net/" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.on.net</a><br>Direct: +61-8-8228-2909<span class="apple-tab-span"> </span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span> Mobile: +61-419-900-366<br>Reception: +61-8-8228-2999 Fax: +61-8-8235-6909</span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="color: black; "> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: black; ">-- <br>Matthew Moyle-Croft Internode/Agile Peering and Core Networks<br>Level 4, 150 Grenfell Street, Adelaide, SA 5000 Australia<br>Email:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:mmc@internode.com.au" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mmc@internode.com.au</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> Web: <a href="http://www.on.net/" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.on.net</a><br>Direct: +61-8-8228-2909<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span> Mobile: +61-419-900-366<br>Reception: +61-8-8228-2999 Fax: +61-8-8235-6909<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div></div></span></blockquote></div><br><div apple-content-edited="true"> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>-- <br>Matthew Moyle-Croft Internode/Agile Peering and Core Networks<br>Level 4, 150 Grenfell Street, Adelaide, SA 5000 Australia<br>Email: <a href="mailto:mmc@internode.com.au">mmc@internode.com.au</a> Web: <a href="http://www.on.net/">http://www.on.net</a><br>Direct: +61-8-8228-2909<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre; "> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre; "> </span> Mobile: +61-419-900-366<br>Reception: +61-8-8228-2999 Fax: +61-8-8235-6909<br></div></div></span> </div><br></body></html>