[AusNOG] Work experience in networking/telecoms/DCs? Getting my foot in the door?

Wed Dec 24 00:21:45 EST 2014

Frankly, I care little for CCIE... but they have marketing value... from a
Cisco partnership perspective, customers like them and employees like you
paying to get them there.  Also, helping an engineer get through the
journey is far better than hiring a paper one.

Also, I firmly believe that knowledge of networking is 80% of the effort of
a CCIE (or similar)... and that most CCIE's should be able to get a JNCIE
or other similar levels in a short time (in the same vertical such as R&S)
with focusing on that vendors particular nuances and terminology.... and
I've seen it happen multiple times now.

Cisco has one of the best baseline network training programmes out there.
Any faults in the education is the people learning it, not the knowledge
itself.  I recommend most engineers who are even going to specialise in
non-Cisco, to do the base Cisco CCNA first. Juniper also has one of the
best education programmes out there, but mostly for beyond the basics.

I also disagree that engineers will always be needed to do the BGP and OSPF
and many other things that automation and programming won't easily be able
to do.  The best example is the programming world where most programmers
use Frameworks to accomplish tasks they previously had to code manually.

How hard would (is it?) really be to write a platform where you could:

create bgp AS12345 called UPSTREAM_A;
link to neighbour AS4567 over path linkgroup LINK_A using auto comms and
preprend:localpref as needed to keep link at 50% load;

Codification of anything is possible if you have the will.  This is what
object programming is all about.... and SDN is the future in these kinds of
networks.

This is the reason I have every single one of my network engineers learning
linux administration, a programming language (Python, Ruby, PHP, etc), the
concepts of virtualisation, an automation tool (puppet, chef, etc) and SDN
concepts - and openly told the gathering at a recently NOG launch in Asia
that any senior engineer who hasn't learnt all these things to a decent
level by the end of 2015 will no longer be working for me. Simple as that.

Vendors have done a good job of keeping engineers away from the underlying
operating system for a long time... Cisco IOS now runs on Linux, Junos is
BSD, Arista EOS is a Linux kernel with Fedora Userland... and most of the
others are the same.  Cisco Network Engineers (for the most part) have
avoided learning TCL/EEM scripting and most other vendor specialists have
done (not) much of the same.

The world is a changing place... and 2015-2016 is going to be a wakeup for
Carrier, Service Provider engineers, with enterprise following along the
tail end and into 2017.  This is life people... The Cloud, Fabrics,
SDN-like networking is going to change everything... wait for Software
Defined Security... :)

Next year Enterprise networks are going to start adopting Virtual
Cross-Connect Fabrics and learn the art of on-Demand elastic
infrastructure.  Any Carriers/ISPs who don't embrace what is coming will
die in the next 24 months, especially as the tech filters down the
consumers who will insist on EoD (everything on demand).

Networking has been boring for 10 years... change is now upon us... strap
yourself in for a couple of fun years.

...Skeeve

*Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com

Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve

facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ;  <http://twitter.com/networkceoau>
linkedin.com/in/skeeve

twitter.com/theispguy ; blog: www.theispguy.com

The Experts Who The Experts Call
Juniper - Cisco - Cumulus Linux - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering

On 23 December 2014 at 23:29, Andy S. <ciscoarc7 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Agreed.
>
> I doubt Openflow can troubleshoot or even roll out medium enterprise BGP
> or OSPF automatically without a need of an engineer (who knows these
> routing protocols, defo).
>
> Interestingly, Skeeve, I slightly remember you posted a Network Engineer
> role with a promise to help them get their CCIE. So if your personal view
> is that of even CCIE is not worth not much in the next 5 years, how is
> helping them get their CCIE provide any benefit for your company?
>
> Obviously I am not having a go at you, just out of curiosity.
>
> Regards,
> Andy
>
> On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 10:48 PM, Colin Stubbs <
> colin.stubbs at equatetechnologies.com.au> wrote:
>
>> Pffft.
>>
>> Provided they add that knowledge to their pool they'll be fine.
>> Understanding Ethernet and STP, along with routing protocols and label
>> switching, will still be critical.
>>
>> What value will an OpenFlow "expert" be if they don't understand what's
>> happening on top of the underlay network? Answer: not much.
>>
>> What good is a network engineer, right now, that doesn't understand HTTP
>> and HTTPS? Answer: not much.
>>
>>
>> Sent from a mobile device. Correct spelling and accurate use of grammar
>> is unlikely to have occurred.
>> On 23/12/2014 10:35 pm, "Skeeve Stevens" <
>> skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com> wrote:
>>
>>> What will a Cisco./Juniper/etc engineer be worth in 5 years with
>>> technologies like OpenFlow, Cumulus Linux and many others yet to come....
>>> not much in my opinion.
>>>
>>>
>>> ...Skeeve
>>>
>>> *Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
>>> skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com
>>>
>>> Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve
>>>
>>> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ;  <http://twitter.com/networkceoau>
>>> linkedin.com/in/skeeve
>>>
>>> twitter.com/theispguy ; blog: www.theispguy.com
>>>
>>>
>>> The Experts Who The Experts Call
>>> Juniper - Cisco - Cumulus Linux - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering
>>>
>>> On 23 December 2014 at 17:56, Graeme Allen <gallen at mytelecom.com.au>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> At one time they used the word "Legacy" as a weapon against Nortel,
>>>> Lucent, et al. The thing about empires is they rarely learn from history.
>>>> What's a Novell certified engineer worth these days?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23 December 2014 20:48:42 GMT+11:00, "Andy S." <ciscoarc7 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I think they have revamped their CCIE now (version 5) which I am
>>>>> gunning (slowly) towards.
>>>>>
>>>>> One of their bigger change is replacing Frame Relay with DMVPN. Also
>>>>> it is now virtualised and I read it somewhere according to Cisco, it
>>>>> enables them to do 20-ish routers (always changing) topology and can make
>>>>> it more to "real-world".
>>>>>
>>>>> This hopefully enough to iron out those textbook CCIEs.
>>>>>
>>>>> I just remember one of my mate told a story about one particular CCIE
>>>>> doing "switchport trunk allowed vlan xxx" instead of "switchport trunk
>>>>> allowed vlan add xxx" and caused an outage. Companies losing money
>>>>> (according to him. It's a stock trading company). Though it's weird they
>>>>> needed more time to address where the issue was.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Andy
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 6:55 PM, Michael Wheeler <
>>>>> michael at michael-wheeler.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hopefully their exam simulation stuff improves. Twice now I've done
>>>>>> an exam and you do something slightly unexpected that's not covered by the
>>>>>> text book (but would satisfy the question requirements) and the simulation
>>>>>> completely breaks. And not in the since of the network stops working, the
>>>>>> actual simulation software does things that just repeats the same command
>>>>>> over and over again without letting you enter in any input. Naturally the
>>>>>> exam moderator where I do my exams doesn't even know how a router is meant
>>>>>> to react nor knows how to tell Cisco that their sim is faulty so I get a
>>>>>> failed exam and down a bunch of my own money. In the end I just rote
>>>>>> memorized the solution off some website command for command so that the
>>>>>> friggin sim wouldn't crash. Yes I feel dirty doing it that way which is why
>>>>>> after that cert I haven't done any exams (even though I covered the
>>>>>> material).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Interested to see the future of network/communications
>>>>>> qualifications...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 23 December 2014 at 17:12, Beeson, Ayden <ABeeson at csu.edu.au>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On the topic, Cisco have identified textbook CCIE’s as an issue,
>>>>>>> they are in the process of redoing all their certification tests to better
>>>>>>> align with real world skills, with a lot more simulations and lab tests and
>>>>>>> a lot less multiple choice etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know the CCNP TSHOOT exam has been redone as all simulation
>>>>>>> situations with real equipment configurations etc, I know CCNP SWITCH and
>>>>>>> ROUTE were pending the changeover when I last did any of them (a year ago
>>>>>>> roughly)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think it’s a very good idea and I’m glad that it is happening,
>>>>>>> certifications are not worth a lot if you can hold one without actually
>>>>>>> understanding what you have learnt….
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ayden Beeson
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *From:* AusNOG [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] *On Behalf
>>>>>>> Of *Cameron Ferdinands
>>>>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 December 2014 6:05 PM
>>>>>>> *To:* Skeeve Stevens
>>>>>>> *Cc:* ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AusNOG] Work experience in networking/telecoms/DCs?
>>>>>>> Getting my foot in the door?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's my one of my favourite interview questions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Whats your favourite routing protocol?"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There only wrong answer is reading a line from a textbook, if you
>>>>>>> love RIP tell me why you love RIP! What's good about it? What's bad about
>>>>>>> it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 23 December 2014 at 08:58, Skeeve Stevens <
>>>>>>> skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yup.. had about a dozen last year.  And then even if they do have
>>>>>>> good theoretical knowledge, the other thing missing is experience, common
>>>>>>> sense and product knowledge.  Being a CCIE/NP and not being able to
>>>>>>> recommend a switch model is annoying (for me).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ...Skeeve
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ; linkedin.com/in/skeeve
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> twitter.com/theispguy ; blog: www.theispguy.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Experts Who The Experts Call
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Juniper - Cisco - Cumulus Linux - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 23 December 2014 at 08:54, Peter Tiggerdine <
>>>>>>> ptiggerdine at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think we've all being in that interview (or heard second hand )
>>>>>>> with a textbook CCIE and when pressed can't seem to explain the simple
>>>>>>> things.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> experience is where it's at.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 7:22 AM, Scott Weeks <surfer at mauigateway.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --- Alex.Samad at yieldbroker.com wrote:
>>>>>>> From: Alex Samad - Yieldbroker <Alex.Samad at yieldbroker.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then I would have a look at real work experience,
>>>>>>> not certification boot camps..
>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wish more folks did this instead of starting off
>>>>>>> interviews with cert-style questions, which seem to
>>>>>>> only test rote memorization skills.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> scott
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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