[AusNOG] AusNOG Digest, Vol 21, Issue 45
Jason Clarke
jason.clarke at esoip.com
Fri Nov 22 19:18:29 EST 2013
Hi All,
Can anyone please recommend a cheap reseller for Dell and Juniper.
Need pricing for Juniper SRX series and Dell Power connect series.
Thanks in advanced!
-----Original Message-----
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Sent: Friday, 22 November 2013 3:25 PM
To: ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
Subject: AusNOG Digest, Vol 21, Issue 45
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: "It's like grandfather's axe" (Alex Samad - Yieldbroker)
2. Re: "It's like grandfather's axe" (Mark Delany)
3. Re: "It's like grandfather's axe" (Paul Wallace)
4. Re: "It's like grandfather's axe" (Heinz N)
5. Re: "It's like grandfather's axe" (Julian DeMarchi)
6. Re: "It's like grandfather's axe" (Beeson, Ayden)
7. Re: "It's like grandfather's axe" (Ross Wheeler)
8. Re: "It's like grandfather's axe" (Jake Anderson)
9. Re: "It's like grandfather's axe" (Pinkerton, Eric (AU Sydney))
10. Re: "It's like grandfather's axe" (Robert Hudson)
11. Re: "It's like grandfather's axe" (Mark Delany)
12. Re: "It's like grandfather's axe" (Paul Wallace)
13. Re: "It's like grandfather's axe" (Jake Anderson)
14. Re: "It's like grandfather's axe" (Alex Samad - Yieldbroker)
15. Re: "It's like grandfather's axe" (Jake Anderson)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 01:09:45 +0000
From: Alex Samad - Yieldbroker <Alex.Samad at yieldbroker.com>
To: Joshua D'Alton <joshua at railgun.com.au>, Jake Anderson
<yahoo at vapourforge.com>
Cc: "ausnog at lists.ausnog.net" <ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] "It's like grandfather's axe"
Message-ID:
<A3FB5D9FD28C50429DF7692DC31054E6066D348B at DC1INTADCW8201.yieldbroker.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Do you honestly think he is on adsl ... :)
I had a friend who lived in a house, that's was built by Sir Garfield Barwick
>From Wikipedia
"Sir Garfield Edward John Barwick, AK GCMG QC was the Attorney-General of Australia, Minister for External Affairs and the seventh and longest serving Chief Justice of Australia. He was appointed a judge of the International Court of Justice"
Interestingly I was there a few times when the whole suburb had a blackout, strangely their house still had power....
Seems like with power come benefits
A
From: AusNOG [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] On Behalf Of Joshua D'Alton
Sent: Friday, 22 November 2013 11:34 AM
To: Jake Anderson
Cc: ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] "It's like grandfather's axe"
Doing that between exchange and where Abbott lives might be more productive in getting us out of this stupid situation :D
On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Jake Anderson <yahoo at vapourforge.com<mailto:yahoo at vapourforge.com>> wrote:
how about we organise an ausnog lovein
We'll all get buckets of water and stand at every junction between you and the exchange, when the tech attends we will dump the buckets of water into the pits sounds like a fun afternoon to me, throw in bbq and beer and I'm in ;->
On 22/11/13 10:45, Tony wrote:
Just an update for those playing along at home, despite the carrier indicating that they wouldn't log it with Telstra, they actually went ahead and did log it. Response came back (as anticipated):
Telstra testing shows no fault on the line and also seeing no line errors
They have provided 2 options
1) Case can be logged ASAP when service is affected after rainfall
2) Appointment for a tech to attend, FFS will apply if no fault found
So pretty much still in the same boat that nobody believes me (or they don't care) that the line drops out when it rains.
I am thinking I might have to ask Santa for a weather station that I can hook up to my RPi (as suggested by some ppl) to gather more data and also look at graphing/recording changes on the DSL (SNR, errors). Going wildly off-topic, but any suggestion on weather stations that are easy to integrate with Linux ? At this point in time I am obviously most interested in measuring rainfall :)
Thanks,
Tony.
________________________________
From: Andrew Yager <andrew at rwts.com.au><mailto:andrew at rwts.com.au>
To: Giles Pollock <glp71s at gmail.com><mailto:glp71s at gmail.com>
Cc: "ausnog at lists.ausnog.net"<mailto:ausnog at lists.ausnog.net> <ausnog at lists.ausnog.net><mailto:ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
Sent: Friday, 22 November 2013 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] "It's like grandfather's axe"
Grandfathers axe is totally why I have 8 NFF fees this week from services that stopped working in the rain that then "magically fixed themselves" or "had faulty customer equipment" that somehow just worked after a technician "did nothing" in the street.
Dispute... Dispute... Dispute...
Andrew
On 21 Nov 2013, at 11:47 pm, Giles Pollock <glp71s at gmail.com<mailto:glp71s at gmail.com>> wrote:
Had the same issue with copper myself. Rain, line drops out, by the time they look at it the problem has dried out and they try to say it doesn't exist. I ended up deliberately calling them on one of my other good lines and piping the sound of the other line to the poor rep (not sure if their ears recovered or not) who managed to get a tech to properly diagnose and repair the poor joints.
That was hard, but try convincing Telstra that you have two separate lead-ins for the same phone line on the same property (so two literal 'first sockets'), and that one isn't working properly... They just didn't want to believe me...
On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Tony <td_miles at yahoo.com<mailto:td_miles at yahoo.com>> wrote:
So here is the response I got from carrier from the ticket I logged last night:
Service is currently showing up for over 2 days
Please advise if packet loss is still occurring as service seems to be stable
We can leave case on hold for 24 hours for monitoring
Fault will need to be logged to Telstra when issue is occurring.
If service is working fine currently, it may be hard for tech to know where the issue is
Case is on hold for 24 hours for monitoring
There is no packet loss right now (apart from the continual 0.4%) and so I have no recourse based on the above ?
I did send them the graph of packet loss, but they either didn't get it, or ignored it.
________________________________
From: Damien Gardner Jnr <rendrag at rendrag.net<mailto:rendrag at rendrag.net>>
To: Tony <td_miles at yahoo.com<mailto:td_miles at yahoo.com>>; "ausnog at lists.ausnog.net<mailto:ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>" <ausnog at lists.ausnog.net<mailto:ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>>
Sent: Thursday, 21 November 2013 6:50 AM
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] "It's like grandfather's axe"
On 20/11/2013 7:58 PM, Tony wrote:
No, I haven't reported it to the carrier for a while. I think I did at one point in the past and the result was it went to the testing team queue, sat there for 2 days until someone got around to looking at it at which point the service had righted itself and job was closed with "no fault found".
Now here's the interesting question.. Did the service actually 'right itself', OR did the line testing resolve the problem? A house we lived in a few years ago, our ADSL sync would drop from 9mbps to 4-5mbps like clockwork, if we had more than three hours of continuous rain. A call to telstra saying there was crackling on the line, and 5 minutes on hold while they ran a line test, and voila, the crackle was gone and a retrain on the modem and it'd be back up to 9mbps.
--
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Message: 2
Date: 22 Nov 2013 01:36:25 +0000
From: "Mark Delany" <g2x at juliet.emu.st>
To: ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] "It's like grandfather's axe"
Message-ID: <20131122013625.63511.qmail at f5-external.bushwire.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> > Doing that between exchange and where Abbott lives might be more
> > productive
In all seriousness one of the biggest benefits of a 21st century NBN is removing "best effort" and "up to" as escape clauses for providers of the infrastructure.
If my electricity company sold me a supply that was "up to" 240V but somewhere between 0 and 83V when it rains, we'd laugh at the absurdity.
So whatever comes out of this latest NBN review and consequential changes in technology, if it includes a QOS component that holds providers accountable, that will remove one of the major concerns with re-using the existing copper network.
And I mean a real, measurable QOS. How hard can it be to have the customer-side NTU have a builtin QOS monitor? If the QOS light is red the provider has a fault to fix. Simple.
After all, if in 2020 we have "upto" 100Mb/s VDSL, but down to 0MB/s when it rains with zero recourse, how much better off are we?
Mark.
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 11:50:04 +1000
From: Paul Wallace <paul.wallace at mtgi.com.au>
To: Mark Delany <g2x at juliet.emu.st>, "ausnog at lists.ausnog.net"
<ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] "It's like grandfather's axe"
Message-ID:
<9CED2FE5B5A0CD43BF197BB30440EB0B10AA63383B at DC01.polyfone.local>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
My power company fails very regularly in the rain actually!
It also regularly sends spikes + brown outs all over.
During the Jan 25, 2013 storms in QLD the power went off for 6 days in at least one place.
No SLA.
No refunds.
No apology.
Then when they brought the power back up there was a massive surge yet no compensation for equipment ruined by power variations.
I don't follow the point that's trying to be made via this thread frankly, .. sure copper isn't perfect or infallible what but technology is? .. maybe the old POTS telephone service in everyones home in the good old days. An 'infallible' media has not been invented yet so I wish this thread would end. I.E. 'Infallible' is simply not going to come to us via microwave, fibre, copper, Free Space Optics, ... EVER probably.
-P
-----Original Message-----
From: AusNOG [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] On Behalf Of Mark Delany
Sent: Friday, 22 November 2013 11:36 AM
To: ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] "It's like grandfather's axe"
> > Doing that between exchange and where Abbott lives might be more
> > productive
In all seriousness one of the biggest benefits of a 21st century NBN is removing "best effort" and "up to" as escape clauses for providers of the infrastructure.
If my electricity company sold me a supply that was "up to" 240V but somewhere between 0 and 83V when it rains, we'd laugh at the absurdity.
So whatever comes out of this latest NBN review and consequential changes in technology, if it includes a QOS component that holds providers accountable, that will remove one of the major concerns with re-using the existing copper network.
And I mean a real, measurable QOS. How hard can it be to have the customer-side NTU have a builtin QOS monitor? If the QOS light is red the provider has a fault to fix. Simple.
After all, if in 2020 we have "upto" 100Mb/s VDSL, but down to 0MB/s when it rains with zero recourse, how much better off are we?
Mark.
_______________________________________________
AusNOG mailing list
AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 12:51:33 +1100 (EST)
From: Heinz N <ausnog at equisoft.com.au>
To: Mark Delany <g2x at juliet.emu.st>
Cc: ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] "It's like grandfather's axe"
Message-ID:
<alpine.LNX.2.00.1311221240490.6986 at servex.equisoft.com.au>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII
> And I mean a real, measurable QOS. How hard can it be to have the
> customer-side NTU have a builtin QOS monitor? If the QOS light is red
> the provider has a fault to fix. Simple.
+1
What a good idea. They would never go for it. Maybe they will say "if the red light stays on continously for longer than 'x' hours"
Modems do have stats already. I wrote a program to collect stats every 20 seconds from my trusty speedstream 4200 (don't laugh... they have an EXCELLENT and comprehensive CLI) and put it in an SQL database, then display it on a web site for all to see. The stats showed widely varying attenuation (indication of a serious line problem). Nobody was interested or even understood what that meant. Finally, after 3 months the *broken
wires* in the pit were actually fixed. It took many, many phone calls (that kept dropping out!), but all the work I did on the stats was wasted.
I guess my "grandfather's axe" was a bit more complicated to fix :-)
H.
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 11:54:03 +1000
From: Julian DeMarchi <julian at jdcomputers.com.au>
To: ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] "It's like grandfather's axe"
Message-ID: <528EB93B.6020602 at jdcomputers.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On 11/22/2013 11:50 AM, Paul Wallace wrote:
> An 'infallible' media has not been invented yet so I wish this thread would end.
I don't see a stop thread yet?
It's a good thread and it's Friday. Relax dude. :)
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 12:54:32 +1100
From: "Beeson, Ayden" <ABeeson at csu.edu.au>
To: Paul Wallace <paul.wallace at mtgi.com.au>, Mark Delany
<g2x at juliet.emu.st>, "ausnog at lists.ausnog.net"
<ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] "It's like grandfather's axe"
Message-ID:
<DDA93F19FCAF1E408E16C64697F74B269DF40670BC at MAIL01.CSUMain.csu.edu.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
It's less about infallibility and more about accountability.
If you can definitively look at your connection and say "look its down" or "look, its giving me 10mbit instead of 100mbit then that's a massive step up from where we are today.
As was said, it's all the "Up to" and "maximum" that is the issue.
Unfortunately, the FTTN technology is still littered with those references due to the way the technology scales across distance.
I've often explained it to people who don't understand the difference as similar to Digital vs. Analogue TV. If you have fibre and it works, it'll just work, whereas ADSL is like analogue TV, you can get a picture, but sometimes it is so bad you may as well not have it at all.
Barring all the little quirks and problems it can have obviously but those are negligible compared to xDSL.
Honestly, I'd be happy to get a 10-20mbit fibre service, while I would love the extra speed that a proper 100mbit connection will bring (plus the upload!) as long as I could say for certain that it'll just work and when it doesn't, I can ring an ISP and not play the blame game between the line, ISP and my gear.
Thanks,
Ayden Beeson
-----Original Message-----
From: AusNOG [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] On Behalf Of Paul Wallace
Sent: Friday, 22 November 2013 12:50 PM
To: Mark Delany; ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] "It's like grandfather's axe"
My power company fails very regularly in the rain actually!
It also regularly sends spikes + brown outs all over.
During the Jan 25, 2013 storms in QLD the power went off for 6 days in at least one place.
No SLA.
No refunds.
No apology.
Then when they brought the power back up there was a massive surge yet no compensation for equipment ruined by power variations.
I don't follow the point that's trying to be made via this thread frankly, .. sure copper isn't perfect or infallible what but technology is? .. maybe the old POTS telephone service in everyones home in the good old days. An 'infallible' media has not been invented yet so I wish this thread would end. I.E. 'Infallible' is simply not going to come to us via microwave, fibre, copper, Free Space Optics, ... EVER probably.
-P
-----Original Message-----
From: AusNOG [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] On Behalf Of Mark Delany
Sent: Friday, 22 November 2013 11:36 AM
To: ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] "It's like grandfather's axe"
> > Doing that between exchange and where Abbott lives might be more
> > productive
In all seriousness one of the biggest benefits of a 21st century NBN is removing "best effort" and "up to" as escape clauses for providers of the infrastructure.
If my electricity company sold me a supply that was "up to" 240V but somewhere between 0 and 83V when it rains, we'd laugh at the absurdity.
So whatever comes out of this latest NBN review and consequential changes in technology, if it includes a QOS component that holds providers accountable, that will remove one of the major concerns with re-using the existing copper network.
And I mean a real, measurable QOS. How hard can it be to have the customer-side NTU have a builtin QOS monitor? If the QOS light is red the provider has a fault to fix. Simple.
After all, if in 2020 we have "upto" 100Mb/s VDSL, but down to 0MB/s when it rains with zero recourse, how much better off are we?
Mark.
_______________________________________________
AusNOG mailing list
AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
_______________________________________________
AusNOG mailing list
AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
Charles Sturt University
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------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 13:14:17 +1100 (EST)
From: Ross Wheeler <ausnog at rossw.net>
To: "Beeson, Ayden" <ABeeson at csu.edu.au>
Cc: "ausnog at lists.ausnog.net" <ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] "It's like grandfather's axe"
Message-ID: <20131122130825.O1495 at ali-syd-1.albury.net.au>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
On Fri, 22 Nov 2013, Beeson, Ayden wrote:
> It's less about infallibility and more about accountability.
> As was said, it's all the "Up to" and "maximum" that is the issue.
Perhaps a page from the "Weights and Measures" handbook. Turn it all around, rather than the unprovable puffery of "Up to 2 million terrabits/nanosecond (*)" how about a guaranteed MINIMUM speed.
If you sell something that you claim will deliver "not less than 2 megabits/second" then thats exactly what it has to achieve, all the time.
Sure, it might burst to 5, 10, 100 megabits/sec and thats perfectly acceptable, as long as it ACHIEVES the published MINIMUM speed ALL THE TIME. (Just like if you buy a litre of petrol.. it has to be "at least" a litre. (or at least within a couple of percent). Isn't that how a "bakers dozen" came to be? To make sure they delivered (at least) what they HAD to, including the lumps and bumps of a few smaller-than-expected individuals)?
R.
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 13:20:08 +1100
From: Jake Anderson <yahoo at vapourforge.com>
To: Ross Wheeler <ausnog at rossw.net>, "Beeson, Ayden"
<ABeeson at csu.edu.au>
Cc: "ausnog at lists.ausnog.net" <ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] "It's like grandfather's axe"
Message-ID: <528EBF58.8040907 at vapourforge.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 22/11/13 13:14, Ross Wheeler wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, 22 Nov 2013, Beeson, Ayden wrote:
>
>> It's less about infallibility and more about accountability.
>
>> As was said, it's all the "Up to" and "maximum" that is the issue.
>
>
> Perhaps a page from the "Weights and Measures" handbook. Turn it all
> around, rather than the unprovable puffery of "Up to 2 million
> terrabits/nanosecond (*)" how about a guaranteed MINIMUM speed.
>
> If you sell something that you claim will deliver "not less than 2
> megabits/second" then thats exactly what it has to achieve, all the
> time. Sure, it might burst to 5, 10, 100 megabits/sec and thats
> perfectly acceptable, as long as it ACHIEVES the published MINIMUM
> speed ALL THE TIME. (Just like if you buy a litre of petrol.. it has
> to be "at least" a litre. (or at least within a couple of percent).
> Isn't that how a "bakers dozen" came to be? To make sure they
> delivered (at least) what they HAD to, including the lumps and bumps
> of a few smaller-than-expected individuals)?
>
> R.
I would support this minimum speed requirement for anything offering a speed.
I most certainly wouldn't hold my breath on it happening however.
Why is it that in the commercial world if I order a 10mbit service, i can expect to get 10mbit (or more) but in residential/everywhere else its "up to" speeds.
Ban the use of "up to" in all advertising I say.
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 13:32:24 +1100
From: "Pinkerton, Eric (AU Sydney)"
<Eric.Pinkerton at baesystemsdetica.com>
Cc: "ausnog at lists.ausnog.net" <ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] "It's like grandfather's axe"
Message-ID:
<94B03B5BBF9A1E408916A8E2A499FD1B15CF4F4636 at SSCBREX01.stratsec.local>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Am I the only person who thinks those photos provided by the CEPU of the aging copper network speak more to shonky work practices than the general longevity of copper networks?
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 13:37:51 +1100
From: Robert Hudson <hudrob at gmail.com>
To: "Pinkerton, Eric (AU Sydney)"
<Eric.Pinkerton at baesystemsdetica.com>
Cc: "ausnog at lists.ausnog.net" <ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] "It's like grandfather's axe"
Message-ID:
<CAOu9xNKJpxbRqeUnV+jmpS+nYN6w8i5ogXK8emeVJ6DHzQR+fQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I suspect those shonkey work practices have contributed to the accelerated decline of the copper network.
That said, I also suspect that many of the requirements to actually do work on the copper in the first place came as a result of the general longetivity of copper networks. :)
On 22 November 2013 13:32, Pinkerton, Eric (AU Sydney) < Eric.Pinkerton at baesystemsdetica.com> wrote:
> Am I the only person who thinks those photos provided by the CEPU of
> the aging copper network speak more to shonky work practices than the
> general longevity of copper networks?
> _______________________________________________
> AusNOG mailing list
> AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
>
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Message: 11
Date: 22 Nov 2013 02:39:14 +0000
From: "Mark Delany" <g2x at juliet.emu.st>
To: ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] "It's like grandfather's axe"
Message-ID: <20131122023914.63730.qmail at f5-external.bushwire.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
On 22Nov13, Heinz N allegedly wrote:
> > And I mean a real, measurable QOS. How hard can it be to have the
> > customer-side NTU have a builtin QOS monitor? If the QOS light is
> > red the provider has a fault to fix. Simple.
>
> +1
>
> What a good idea. They would never go for it. Maybe they will say "if
> the red light stays on continously for longer than 'x' hours"
The QOS monitor has to be a bit cleverer than an instantaneous value of course. Packet error rate over a 24 hour period or somesuch. But this is hardly rocket science in 2013 is it?
If it's an NBN regulated definition that all NTUs comply with, then consumer don't need to buy rain gauges to reinforce their case. Heck, they don't even have to make a case at all; the NTU does that for them.
Going further, the NTU could even report the fault and the provider could fix it all without the consumer having to be part of the process. You know, use the technology.
While it may be true that "they" will never go for it, this is exactly the sort of area where governments can do good; regulating a minimum service level then step aside and let providers deliver the service under their watchful eye.
Mark.
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 13:14:13 +1000
From: Paul Wallace <paul.wallace at mtgi.com.au>
To: Robert Hudson <hudrob at gmail.com>, "Pinkerton, Eric (AU Sydney)"
<Eric.Pinkerton at baesystemsdetica.com>
Cc: "ausnog at lists.ausnog.net" <ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] "It's like grandfather's axe"
Message-ID:
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When the NBN was first announced (or the deal completed at least) Telstra immediately stopped investing in the copper CAN.
.. as would anyone else probably knowing that the entire copper network was going to be discontinued.
Many of the complaints we've heard today might have been averted where the previous government added a 'maintenance' facet to the agreement with Telstra.
Given the not inconsiderable delay forecast by the NBNco to complete the rollout (I think 8-9 years was forecast), it seems negligent for the previous Gov to have exposed some Australian consumers to the degradation.
Also, strangely, I haven't heard the Unions complain that the effect of killing off the copper CAN was to provide Telstra with the perfect excuse to make a range of copper focused jobs redundant.
Nothings perfect but some things are just plain dumb.
-P
From: AusNOG [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] On Behalf Of Robert Hudson
Sent: Friday, 22 November 2013 12:38 PM
To: Pinkerton, Eric (AU Sydney)
Cc: ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] "It's like grandfather's axe"
I suspect those shonkey work practices have contributed to the accelerated decline of the copper network.
That said, I also suspect that many of the requirements to actually do work on the copper in the first place came as a result of the general longetivity of copper networks. :)
On 22 November 2013 13:32, Pinkerton, Eric (AU Sydney) <Eric.Pinkerton at baesystemsdetica.com<mailto:Eric.Pinkerton at baesystemsdetica.com>> wrote:
Am I the only person who thinks those photos provided by the CEPU of the aging copper network speak more to shonky work practices than the general longevity of copper networks?
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Message: 13
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 14:24:50 +1100
From: Jake Anderson <yahoo at vapourforge.com>
To: Paul Wallace <paul.wallace at mtgi.com.au>, Robert Hudson
<hudrob at gmail.com>, "Pinkerton, Eric (AU Sydney)"
<Eric.Pinkerton at baesystemsdetica.com>
Cc: "ausnog at lists.ausnog.net" <ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] "It's like grandfather's axe"
Message-ID: <528ECE82.8070603 at vapourforge.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
I think its fair to say that since the FTTP roll was announced and telstra dragged kicking and screaming into the 20th century that the CAN has been treated with a "well it only needs to last 10 years" mentality.
Which is understandable, theres no real point replacing a trunk line today if its going to get replaced by fibre tomorrow.
However I think the big change happened around when it was privatised and particularly under ziggy.
It seemed to go from a place where (as a whole) doing the job well was valued over doing lots of jobs.
It went from well we are going to have to do this right at some point, might as well do it now to must maximise profits for the next quarter, "do more with less".
Now I know there were hotshots, slackers and dodgy brothers back then too but I don't think its unfair to say the bloke we now have running the NBN also oversaw the biggest reduction in maintenance work and customer satisfaction in the Telstra CAN.
In theory telstra are still required to maintain services in areas not served by NBN, perhaps a few $M thrown their way to pay for "repairs not economic with upcoming obsolescence" may have been an idea. How on earth you manage that is left as an exercise for the student lol.
On 22/11/13 14:14, Paul Wallace wrote:
>
> When the NBN was first announced (or the deal completed at least)
> Telstra immediately stopped investing in the copper CAN.
>
> .. as would anyone else probably knowing that the entire copper
> network was going to be discontinued.
>
> Many of the complaints we've heard today might have been averted where
> the previous government added a 'maintenance' facet to the agreement
> with Telstra.
>
> Given the not inconsiderable delay forecast by the NBNco to complete
> the rollout (I think 8-9 years was forecast), it seems negligent for
> the previous Gov to have exposed some Australian consumers to the
> degradation.
>
> Also, strangely, I haven't heard the Unions complain that the effect
> of killing off the copper CAN was to provide Telstra with the perfect
> excuse to make a range of copper focused jobs redundant.
>
> Nothings perfect but some things are just plain dumb.
>
> -P
>
> *From:*AusNOG [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] *On Behalf Of
> *Robert Hudson
> *Sent:* Friday, 22 November 2013 12:38 PM
> *To:* Pinkerton, Eric (AU Sydney)
> *Cc:* ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
> *Subject:* Re: [AusNOG] "It's like grandfather's axe"
>
> I suspect those shonkey work practices have contributed to the
> accelerated decline of the copper network.
>
> That said, I also suspect that many of the requirements to actually do
> work on the copper in the first place came as a result of the general
> longetivity of copper networks. :)
>
> On 22 November 2013 13:32, Pinkerton, Eric (AU Sydney)
> <Eric.Pinkerton at baesystemsdetica.com
> <mailto:Eric.Pinkerton at baesystemsdetica.com>> wrote:
>
> Am I the only person who thinks those photos provided by the CEPU of
> the aging copper network speak more to shonky work practices than the
> general longevity of copper networks?
>
> _______________________________________________
> AusNOG mailing list
> AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net <mailto:AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net>
> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> AusNOG mailing list
> AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
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Message: 14
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 04:05:17 +0000
From: Alex Samad - Yieldbroker <Alex.Samad at yieldbroker.com>
To: "ausnog at lists.ausnog.net" <ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] "It's like grandfather's axe"
Message-ID:
<A3FB5D9FD28C50429DF7692DC31054E6066D3B6E at DC1INTADCW8201.yieldbroker.com>
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Haven't you highlighted the Government run V's commercial run problem.
Commercial is in it for its stock holders. I would presume the people who do the work on the lines get paid by the job, not the time. Pareto's 80% rule, the rate of return above is to great above 80%
I always thought that the copper (infrastructure) should have stayed with a government department when Telstra was privatised
A
From: AusNOG [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] On Behalf Of Jake Anderson
Sent: Friday, 22 November 2013 2:25 PM
To: Paul Wallace; Robert Hudson; Pinkerton, Eric (AU Sydney)
Cc: ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] "It's like grandfather's axe"
I think its fair to say that since the FTTP roll was announced and telstra dragged kicking and screaming into the 20th century that the CAN has been treated with a "well it only needs to last 10 years" mentality.
Which is understandable, theres no real point replacing a trunk line today if its going to get replaced by fibre tomorrow.
However I think the big change happened around when it was privatised and particularly under ziggy.
It seemed to go from a place where (as a whole) doing the job well was valued over doing lots of jobs.
It went from well we are going to have to do this right at some point, might as well do it now to must maximise profits for the next quarter, "do more with less".
Now I know there were hotshots, slackers and dodgy brothers back then too but I don't think its unfair to say the bloke we now have running the NBN also oversaw the biggest reduction in maintenance work and customer satisfaction in the Telstra CAN.
In theory telstra are still required to maintain services in areas not served by NBN, perhaps a few $M thrown their way to pay for "repairs not economic with upcoming obsolescence" may have been an idea. How on earth you manage that is left as an exercise for the student lol.
On 22/11/13 14:14, Paul Wallace wrote:
When the NBN was first announced (or the deal completed at least) Telstra immediately stopped investing in the copper CAN.
.. as would anyone else probably knowing that the entire copper network was going to be discontinued.
Many of the complaints we've heard today might have been averted where the previous government added a 'maintenance' facet to the agreement with Telstra.
Given the not inconsiderable delay forecast by the NBNco to complete the rollout (I think 8-9 years was forecast), it seems negligent for the previous Gov to have exposed some Australian consumers to the degradation.
Also, strangely, I haven't heard the Unions complain that the effect of killing off the copper CAN was to provide Telstra with the perfect excuse to make a range of copper focused jobs redundant.
Nothings perfect but some things are just plain dumb.
-P
From: AusNOG [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] On Behalf Of Robert Hudson
Sent: Friday, 22 November 2013 12:38 PM
To: Pinkerton, Eric (AU Sydney)
Cc: ausnog at lists.ausnog.net<mailto:ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] "It's like grandfather's axe"
I suspect those shonkey work practices have contributed to the accelerated decline of the copper network.
That said, I also suspect that many of the requirements to actually do work on the copper in the first place came as a result of the general longetivity of copper networks. :)
On 22 November 2013 13:32, Pinkerton, Eric (AU Sydney) <Eric.Pinkerton at baesystemsdetica.com<mailto:Eric.Pinkerton at baesystemsdetica.com>> wrote:
Am I the only person who thinks those photos provided by the CEPU of the aging copper network speak more to shonky work practices than the general longevity of copper networks?
_______________________________________________
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AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net<mailto:AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net>
http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
_______________________________________________
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Message: 15
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 15:26:10 +1100
From: Jake Anderson <yahoo at vapourforge.com>
To: Alex Samad - Yieldbroker <Alex.Samad at yieldbroker.com>,
"ausnog at lists.ausnog.net" <ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] "It's like grandfather's axe"
Message-ID: <528EDCE2.7040404 at vapourforge.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
I would say as a general philosophy, shared assets, (copper network, water pipes, power poles and wires) should be owned by the govt.
Privatising telstra retail is fine, even good, but trying to make a commercial return on something like the CAN isn't going to make for good outcomes in the longer term.
Thats not to say private enterprise can't compete with the govt, or handle parts of it, IE providing transatlantic cables or high tension power lines (or perhaps motorways), but the important but low return last mile just isn't going to be profitable enough for private enterprise to get the best outcome.
On 22/11/13 15:05, Alex Samad - Yieldbroker wrote:
>
> Haven't you highlighted the Government run V's commercial run problem.
>
> Commercial is in it for its stock holders. I would presume the people
> who do the work on the lines get paid by the job, not the time.
> Pareto's 80% rule, the rate of return above is to great above 80%
>
> I always thought that the copper (infrastructure) should have stayed
> with a government department when Telstra was privatised
>
> A
>
> *From:*AusNOG [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] *On Behalf Of
> *Jake Anderson
> *Sent:* Friday, 22 November 2013 2:25 PM
> *To:* Paul Wallace; Robert Hudson; Pinkerton, Eric (AU Sydney)
> *Cc:* ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
> *Subject:* Re: [AusNOG] "It's like grandfather's axe"
>
> I think its fair to say that since the FTTP roll was announced and
> telstra dragged kicking and screaming into the 20th century that the
> CAN has been treated with a "well it only needs to last 10 years"
> mentality.
> Which is understandable, theres no real point replacing a trunk line
> today if its going to get replaced by fibre tomorrow.
> However I think the big change happened around when it was privatised
> and particularly under ziggy.
> It seemed to go from a place where (as a whole) doing the job well was
> valued over doing lots of jobs.
> It went from well we are going to have to do this right at some point,
> might as well do it now to must maximise profits for the next quarter,
> "do more with less".
>
> Now I know there were hotshots, slackers and dodgy brothers back then
> too but I don't think its unfair to say the bloke we now have running
> the NBN also oversaw the biggest reduction in maintenance work and
> customer satisfaction in the Telstra CAN.
>
> In theory telstra are still required to maintain services in areas not
> served by NBN, perhaps a few $M thrown their way to pay for "repairs
> not economic with upcoming obsolescence" may have been an idea. How on
> earth you manage that is left as an exercise for the student lol.
>
> On 22/11/13 14:14, Paul Wallace wrote:
>
> When the NBN was first announced (or the deal completed at least)
> Telstra immediately stopped investing in the copper CAN.
>
> .. as would anyone else probably knowing that the entire copper
> network was going to be discontinued.
>
> Many of the complaints we've heard today might have been averted
> where the previous government added a 'maintenance' facet to the
> agreement with Telstra.
>
> Given the not inconsiderable delay forecast by the NBNco to
> complete the rollout (I think 8-9 years was forecast), it seems
> negligent for the previous Gov to have exposed some Australian
> consumers to the degradation.
>
> Also, strangely, I haven't heard the Unions complain that the
> effect of killing off the copper CAN was to provide Telstra with
> the perfect excuse to make a range of copper focused jobs redundant.
>
> Nothings perfect but some things are just plain dumb.
>
> -P
>
> *From:*AusNOG [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] *On Behalf
> Of *Robert Hudson
> *Sent:* Friday, 22 November 2013 12:38 PM
> *To:* Pinkerton, Eric (AU Sydney)
> *Cc:* ausnog at lists.ausnog.net <mailto:ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [AusNOG] "It's like grandfather's axe"
>
> I suspect those shonkey work practices have contributed to the
> accelerated decline of the copper network.
>
> That said, I also suspect that many of the requirements to
> actually do work on the copper in the first place came as a result
> of the general longetivity of copper networks. :)
>
> On 22 November 2013 13:32, Pinkerton, Eric (AU Sydney)
> <Eric.Pinkerton at baesystemsdetica.com
> <mailto:Eric.Pinkerton at baesystemsdetica.com>> wrote:
>
> Am I the only person who thinks those photos provided by the CEPU
> of the aging copper network speak more to shonky work practices
> than the general longevity of copper networks?
>
> _______________________________________________
> AusNOG mailing list
> AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net <mailto:AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net>
> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> AusNOG mailing list
>
> AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net <mailto:AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net>
>
> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> AusNOG mailing list
> AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
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