[AusNOG] IPv4

Van Der Meulen, Mark Mark.VanDerMeulen at travelex.com.au
Mon Mar 4 01:21:14 EST 2013

This is not directed to anyone in particular.


Whilst everyone else gets on the "I'm thinking about everyone in the
rest of the world where they are so underprivileged, and I'm also
helping your grandmother get IPv6 on her iPad, blah blah" in attempts to
passive aggressively big note how great they are without sounding self
centered, I would like to add my perspective. The perspective of the
white male in his mid twenties who grew up in an affluent country and
who is for the most part, quite self centered.... (since apparently that
matters when discussing IPv4 resource policy now)


I'll start off by saying that really the whole " you think you have it
bad, you should see everyone else in the third world" argument is simply
evasive behavior. Also, whilst you're pushing how selfless you all are
in helping others, think on this:  If you want to take credit for being
the persons who have been trying to make the internet a better place
through your policies regarding IPv4 and IPv6, then you also need to
take the credit when flack is handed out about your inability to
properly handle IPv4 resource management, and how the bad decisions that
you may have been part of are affecting others.


>From this point on in my email, I wish for the "IPv6 is here and IPv4 is
long gone" argument to remain irrelevant and for those of you who are
defending APNIC to try look at things a little more objectively. There
are apparently(according to this rather long email thread) ~16,384 /22's
left, and to some people that's a lot of IPv4 left - not only that,
there is a lot of unused/unjustified/unneeded space out there so let's
talk about that for now.


I work with a number of corporates in banking and finance, and in
addition to this a number of small ISP's and hosting companies trying to
get by. Most of the small/medium sized companies I work with are
providing IPv6 in a dual stack, and for the most part are limited to
their /22 or less, which they have received in the past 1-3 years. On
the other hand working with the larger companies, I see absolutely no
intention whatsoever of moving to IPv6. They purely run IPv4
environments and show blatant disregard for the amount of IPv4 resources
they consume through their various legal entities. Generally, this is
because of a number of reasons:


a)      They simply don't care. They have far more address space than
they need, and they have "better things" to do with their time than
manage a migration to IPv6.

b)      They don't understand IPv6, and are concerned about its security

c)       Management would never approve a project to IPv6 as it simply
isn't in their interest commercially.

d)      It is a pain when dealing with compliance.

e)      Why?? Everything works right now, so why make life harder for
ourselves? We are never going to use all of our allocations.


So on one hand I see, large corporate A with more address space than
required, abusing the system because they can't be bothered(amongst
other reasons) and it doesn't make commercially sense to. Then I see
small company B implementing IPv6 but is severely limited ini its growth
abilities because of the lack of IPv4 available to it - why is this?
Because if they are selling to consumers, the consumer wants a working,
no fuss connection that works with everything and with minimal fuss. If
they don't get the minimal fuss, they can and will take their business
elsewhere in a twinkling of an eye. If they are selling to businesses,
then there is a good chance that the business customers have a very
similar attitude to that of company A, in which case they only want IPv4
services. So you get the picture, even though they have IPv6, no one
wants it because they don't care enough about it, and you can't grow a
business off the back of a product that no one wants.


My point here is that companies who are abusing the system are actually
making themselves more commercially viable - they are lowering or
maintaining capital and operating expenditure and for the most part
making sound commercial decisions. What this means materially for the
companies not in the same position(quite likely because of timing) is
that they are forced to adopt a strategy which can potentially make them
less commercially viable because they are the ones which need to
increase CAPEX and OPEX, without any real prospect of those investments
returning profit or increased customer retention. 


Let me make this very clear, the very same policies that have allowed
the company which has obtained excessive address space through a
registries mismanagement to be more commercially viable are the very
same policies that are limiting the commercial viability of another
company. I would say that by definition, this makes the policies of the
registrars anti-competitive in nature.


Is it the problem of the small/medium/large business that the address
space was previously mismanaged? Is it to something to do with their
margins or their own lack of planning? Absolutely not, they are
generally making an effort at their own expense to implement other
solutions, when often times companies who are abusing the system clearly
are not attempting to implement other solutions, and the fact that a
company may or may not have the margins to buy more space on the open
market is largely irrelevant, they need to be given an equal opportunity
to grow - just like a company buying new IPv4 resources or a corporate
who already owns lots of IPv4 resources is given or has been given that


At the end of the day APNIC and the other registrars were around long
before many of these companies started doing business and long before
many of these companies even knew what an IP Address was and how it
affected their business model. They have been responsible for the
allocation of address space for quite some time and hence these
registrars must take full responsibility for their lack of judgment and
lack of ability to properly administer allocations - they are being paid
to have the very foresight that they have proved they never had(and I'm
not talking about 20 years ago, I'm talking about in the last 5 years).
The new/middle aged companies trying grow are simply casualties of a
poorly designed and executed set of policies, IPv6 won't fix it for them
now and they likely won't be viable long enough for it to fix it for
them later. Higher margins/CGNAT/etc are not solutions that will provide
long term fixes, and are not solutions commercially competitive enough
to find a place in a business plan.


This is my point, as an outside observer of how the APNIC policy
influences the Australian market that I work in, I have good reason to
believe that the APNIC policies are cultivating anti-competitive
environments. Due to the very nature of the beast in that those who
govern it are also those who benefit from it, I don't believe it will
change or can change.


Full Disclosure: I very recently applied for IP space through APNIC for
one of the smaller companies I work with who will very likely run out of
space within 6 months of having an allocation, so I am biased(quite
clearly, given the above email!)

Full Disclosure: I run IPv6 at home and everywhere I can, so please
don't try discredit me because you found someone I work with who doesn't
run IPv6 - it's poor form and proved you have no interest in correcting
bad policies.

Full Disclosure: My grammar is pretty average, even for an engineer.
Sorry if this hurt your eyes.


Lastly, I'm young and feel empowered by voicing my opinion on matters I
have only have half the picture on. So ignore me as you wish.





From: ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net
[mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] On Behalf Of Jared Hirst
Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2013 11:20 PM
To: Skeeve Stevens
Cc: AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] IPv4


I don't outsource, I'm there making a difference by direct employment,
creating jobs, giving opportunities and teaching about the networks we
run here such as v6 etc, they are not aware if v6 yet and I think that's
more important than anything to educate them right? You've been saying
all day v4 is dead.


You did have a go directly at me, you raved on how good you were by
employing 7 staff offshore and then asked me what I was doing. I never
accused you of not doing anything for a developing world did I??


Unfortunately I'm not even going to waste my time reply to the rest of
your email, clearly you have not read any of mine properly otherwise you
would have seen that at no point was I asking or implying that anything
was about 'me me me' ill say it again, I can afford the space if I need
to buy it, not once have I said I wanted the low rate for me or
anything. I merely stated that the low price in AU will be abused. Again
get your facts right before commenting.




Jared Hirst

Servers Australia Pty Ltd

Phone: 1300 788 862

Direct: (02) 4307 4205

E-mail: jared.hirst at serversaustralia.com.au

On 03/03/2013, at 11:03 PM, Skeeve Stevens <
skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com> wrote:



	My point was not what you do or don't do... but your attitude is
screaming 'me me me'. Lots of people here use outsourced staff from
developing nations (it's not called Third World anymore), so it is
nothing amazing. You pay people to do a job. Sure, they might live well,
but what are you doing to change India itself? What are you doing to
change the future and make things better?


	I know a lot of the guys involved in the ISP scene in India... I
know quite reasonably what is going on over there... and so do other
people who have invested the time, like James Spenceley who has a tonne
of dealing with them, especially over the last couple of years in their
fight to setup their own IN-NIC.


	I am not someone who normally tells people what I do to affect
change overseas, but I was accused of not caring about the developing
world, when nothing is further from the truth.


	I'm here, arguing for the developing nations... and that the
lower APNIC fees will help them... you are only talking about yourself,
and how you are affected and that one of the solutions should be that
fees are raised.


	I am not targeting you in my comments here... It is for anyone
who can't get past their own self and needs and think about the wider
community. Those who can't see that policies affect everyone
differently, and that the 'needs of the many', often outweigh the needs
of the entitled few.


	My view in relation to Internet Governance and Resources Policy
is that I don't really care what rich entitled nations like Australia
need right now. I care about developing nations where the lives of
hundreds of millions will be affected over the next few years of massive
internet growth.


	If you do come to APNIC meetings, or do join APNIC SIG Policy,
you better come with a perspective of what is best for the whole
community - just just your little corner. If you don't, you will
experience dozens of nations who will come back at you with force.


	To clarify. I am not saying that Jared, Bevan, or anyone else
isn't doing enough to help the world in any way. Mine is a calling...
something that blends my skills, beliefs and life aims.. It isn't for
everyone. What annoys me is when people only seem to argue for
themselves without considering those who are far far less fortunate.



	Skeeve Stevens -eintellego Networks Pty Ltd

	skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com;www.eintellegonetworks.com

	Phone: 1300 239 038;Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ;skype://skeeve


	twitter.com/networkceoau; blog:www.network-ceo.net


	The Experts Who The Experts Call

	Juniper - Cisco- Cloud


	On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 10:17 PM, Jared Hirst <
jared.hirst at serversaustralia.com.au> wrote:


	I have 30, yes 30 staff in Kochin India down in Kerala with my
outsourcing company (astraeanetworks.com), a THIRD world country, how
dare you judge me based on not even knowing me. So I should say WHAT THE
HELL ARE YOU DOING?? You only have 7 staff.I have 30, pick up your game?

	I like you have trained them in networking, design, hosting
management and many many other things that the western wordd has and
they they can only dream of ever learning. I have sent them equipment
and also pay DOUBLE the average wage so that their family can eat and
sleep at night. I also provide a nice office as I am sure you have seen
on my facebook, I provide them with training, trips to Aus and materials
that they will NEVER get from anyone in their country. Is that enough to
satisfy you?

	India has a truck load of IPs and I know this first hand because
I have a standard business DSL in my apartment there (yes I go there
every 3 months to see them, train them and give them help and
assistance) and it came with a standard allocation of a /28, so again
mis-allocation and training is causing the shortage. They are NOT aware
of the shortage and even worse they were not aware of IPv6 till we got
there and provided training and equipment for v6.. So keep your smart
arse comments to yourself, I have said the WHOLE TIME I am not fighting
for me, I can afford space if I need it. I am fighting for the likes of
SMALL business that make up a massive portion of Australias businesses
and ISPs, those are the ones that cannot afford to just go and pay $10
-$16 / IP and I am saying that it would be good IF they could get from

	I am truly surprised that you have totally judged me this way
and done it on a public list, I now know why so many people dont post
here, its like being thrown into a den of tigers. You should be ashamed
mate. Next time read my past emails and get the story right before
having a go at someone.

	From: ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net [mailto:
ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] On Behalf Of Skeeve Stevens
	Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2013 10:04 PM
	To: Joshua D'Alton
	Cc: AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
	Subject: Re: [AusNOG] IPv4

	Because, like most people, he is thinking only about himself and
how hard done he is being done by.

	I far more care about developing nations... look at India. About
20 million internet users... and hoping to get to 100 million in the
next two years. Users in China having to 're-connect' to try and get a
real IP address. How the hell are they going to make it happen? But do
you know what... they WILL, and without too much whinging.

	This is akin you you complaining you don't have enough to eat
when people are starving overseas. Really? Get over yourself and suck it
up princess.

	You have SO much more potential and ability to come up with
creative and innovative solutions to deal with these situations compared
to dozens of other countries who are struggling with sub-standard
infrastructure. You can afford the equipment and expertise they can only
dream of.

	I have 7 engineers in Cambodia who work for me. They live, learn
and work on Australia/Western quality networks. I've trained them up to
be the best engineers in the country. Under my direction, they also
donate time in Cambodia helping KHNOG get started, help ISOC-KH happen,
involved in Barcamps, do training for free at schools like Passerelles
Numeriques (http://www.passerellesnumeriques.org/cambodge/) who train
orphans and the poor into becoming engineers (I've hired 4 of them!).
I've shipped dozens of peices of equipment to the country to donate to
local Cisco training schools and other places. I also allocate my staffs
time to helping engineers at all the ISPs in Cambodia get better at what
they do - because they very little options to learn how.

	I HELP the developing world better its infrastructure... I've
put my effort and my money where my mouth is - What the hell do you do
Jared? Or for that matter, you Bevan, whose squillions could make a HUGE
difference... or is there things you've been doing that I don't know? I
don't have much, but I give a lot... how many people here have a lot and
don't even give a cent?!




	Skeeve Stevens -eintellego Networks Pty Ltd

	skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com;www.eintellegonetworks.com

	Phone: 1300 239 038;Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ;skype://skeeve


	twitter.com/networkceoau; blog:www.network-ceo.net


	The Experts Who The Experts Call

	Juniper - Cisco- Cloud

	On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 9:48 PM, Joshua D'Alton <
joshua at railgun.com.au> wrote:

	It was depleted over 5 years ago.. Why do you think you deserve
space any more than they do? I'd argue using IPs for cheap VPS etc is
almost as bad as having the IPs routed but not actually past the
gateway. In both cases were the cost $10/IP/mo neither business would be
that wasteful, or they'd just be on v6.

	On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 9:40 PM, Jared Hirst <
jared.hirst at serversaustralia.com.au> wrote:

	+1 to this!

	As I said before, I only came into the industry 3 years ago for
IP space and now I am suffering because others are nesting on it rather
than handing it back, its a shame that so many people have the attitude
to just shun people like me that are young, have a successful business
and did not have the chance to get more space before it was depleted to
other larger providers or other providers that didnt really need space
but got it anyway. I was not trying to rant before and people really
took me out of context and smashed me for no reason, so I am glad
someone has put it in a nice long email to be clear. Thanks Bevan!

	From: Skeeve Stevens <skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com>
	Date: Sunday, 3 March 2013 8:04 PM
	To: Nathan Brookfield <Nathan.Brookfield at simtronic.com.au>
	Cc: "ausnog at lists.ausnog.net" <ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
	Subject: Re: [AusNOG] IPv4
	Resent-From: Bevan Slattery <bevan.slattery at nextdc.com>

	"Basically yes. But get over it." 

	Sorry Skeeve, but that's a disgraceful attitude. Many on this
list seems to think "we're so freakin' smart we went ahead and gorged
ourselves on IP addresses to the detriment of the global community and
now we are making a motza from it. Sucks to be you for not seeing this

	Well here's the news flash everyone who thinks themselves soooo
clever and smug are frankly obtuse and their level of arrogance disgusts
me. You think everyone without IPv4 space has only themselves to blame
remarks that seem to be coming from middle aged people working for
providers greater than 5 years old in a developed economy who have been
in the industry for years.

	So Skeeve and others, I'd like to go to Iraq, or Afghanistan or
Somalia and tell them that they have no address space and sucks to be
them because they were too stupid not to see the IPv4 coming. Disregard
that it's mainly because they were too busy fighting a war, trying to
find food for their family or too busy walking kilometres to go to a mud
hut with a chalk board for a "iPad" 5 years ago.

	Or how about you go visit people in China and India who have
2,000,000,000 people trying to lift themselves out of some of the lowest
wages ever and despite being so desperate to get connected to the
internet to find their way to "freedom" and information yes freedom and
information you know that thing the internet provides (?) and let them
know they've despite having 1/3 of the worlds population you're getting
shafted because the Shinhwa news agency didn't let them know there was
an IPv4 crunch coming. Dare you to put an ad in the paper and invite all
those Chinese people to who can't connect to come down the "the square"
to talk to you about why they can't.

	While you're at it, go into a tech incubator or anyone who is in
their late teens/early 20's who dare to do what we do and start an ISP
and tell them "sucks to be you I've effectively lied my ass off to APNIC
and the other RIR's to get my hands on a life supply of IPv4 and relied
on their pathetic IPv4 management systems to starve your hard earned
start up dollars and your future while I make huge $$ because I have no
conscience! ".

	So the plan seems to be "we're going to screw the youth/up and
coming countries and developing countries and sell our IP's to them and
IPv6 isn't going to get traction until they are bleeding out of their
noses and they die on the floor. Sanctioned extortion effectively. We're
putting a price on their future and freedom. How smart are we."

	The hubris and arrogance here simply disgusts me and even worse,
those that lied their ass off to steal more addresses than they needed
are now playing mercenary to the future development of our youth or
developing countries. What makes it worse It's coming from people who
are involved in the RIR's and the lack of compassion and disdain being
displayed is frankly beneath what the internet community is all about.

	I expected a lot more from a lot of middle aged people who were
all young once and were given a chance. Screw your arrogance and hubris.
Get your head out of your arses and travel the world and see what the
power and freedom the internet and IPv4 provides at least for the next 5
years and remember that you too were young once and that the only reason
your so god-damn smart is because he you managed to fallout of a womans
uterus in a lucky country.

	If you can't read between the lines call me and I'll make it
very clear how pathetic your attitude is.


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