[AusNOG] IPv4

Bevan Slattery Bevan.Slattery at nextdc.com
Sun Mar 3 17:49:55 EST 2013

Hey James,

Again great response.  I'm not going to continue shove this too hard :)  I
think we're pretty clear on both sides :)

I've known numerous people at APNIC and others for many years.  Worked on
a number of initiatives.  Obviously it's full of good people.  I also
commend you, Skeeve and others working hard for no reward, but to try to
make the world a better place.

So my frustration is more at the structural limitations of the
organisation and this is the same with other RIR's, not the people nor the
work they do.

Do I think the RIR's and APNIC have erred here?  You bet.  Do I actually
think they should have done better - absolutely no question.  Do I think
they could have done something different? Yep too.

The structure of the RIR's including membership and historical decisions
have severely limited their ability to affect significant change and make
the hard decisions.  That is a shame. The UN and ITU have been knocking on
your door and they are going to come knocking again - and I think their
argument is going to have some merit in the shorter term (not ideal) when
recently developing countries are being treated poorly in terms of
resource allocation.

Out :)


On 3/03/13 4:58 PM, "James Spenceley" <james at iroute.org> wrote:

>I didn't say I was that free market person or that was the purpose of any
>policy. There are side effects of any action or for that matter inaction,
>it would be responsible to just stick our heads in the sand and ignore
>them. Anyone involved in oversight has the job to consider all possible
>outcomes. I don't think you can think for a second that my PS: comment
>should be considered the main or even official APNIC position on the
>policy, I was noting a side effect as I believe it added relevance to the
>I'm the biggest free market guy there is (well maybe after you Bev :) but
>for APNIC's role you have to consider that free market economics simply
>don't work across a broad cross sections of economies and member's
>interests. That doesn't mean we can ignore their effects, which was the
>reason for the openness in that statement.
>On 03/03/2013, at 4:14 PM, Bevan Slattery <bevan at slattery.net.au> wrote:
>> A free market would dictate that the entire space comes to auction
>>regularly and pretending that a secondary market for those who were
>>essentially gifted space of an globally important resource because of
>>poor management is a red herring.
>> Surprising comment from what is supposed to be a not for profit
>>organisation that is supposed to be concerned with the global resource
>>management of Internet addresses.
>> Completely counter to your argument earlier where you extolled the
>>virtues of APNIC trying to reduce the cost for developing nations and
>>yet in the next breath saying maybe capitalism dictating $50/ip is just
>>fine and dandy.
>> Registries have failed and continue to fail in managing this address
>IP has been broken since the early 80's and RFC 791.
>Overtime we have all done out best to become aware of the problem, then
>manage that problem As time has gone on, each incarnation (internNIC,
>AUNIC, RIRs) have done a better and better job at. CIDR was a massive
>positive step, RFC2050 another one (most of the authors of those were RIR
>staff), the final /8 policy is allowing late comers to the game to get at
>least functional space. The RIRs have the biggest promoters of IPv4
>exhaustion and IPv6 training/awareness.
>These are all pretty decent achievements, especially given the
>geopolitics involved.
>Have there been mistakes ? Of course, geez InterNIC giving IBM, HP,
>Apple, DEC, MIT, Ford, GE, Haliburton, US Postal etc) an entire /8 can't
>exactly be argued to be a positive but that would have simply bought us
>time, how much ? still nowhere near what is needed to migrate the worlds
>largest creation from one protocol to another.
>Again, given that NextDC have their own IP space today is just one of the
>reason I point to the fact that your statement (and rather binary
>criticism) isn't particularly fair.
>What has failed was the design (complication, lack of backwards
>compatibility) and implementation of IPv6. The Industry globally has
>failed by only waiting till it was too late l(like 10 years to late) to
>start dealing with this problem. I can dig up ausnog posts of people who
>only a few years ago were saying that IPv4 exhaustion was simply a myth.
>It's great to having this debate now, a good thing, but you can't deny
>the fact it is coming a little bit too late (but better than never). I
>don't think blaming APNIC or the RIRs is the right direction to take
>this, we are doing the best we can do for the broad set of "yous" we have
>(both new and future), we do this in a complicated environment that was
>broken before any of us even got involved.

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