[AusNOG] IPv4

Jared Hirst jared.hirst at serversaustralia.com.au
Sun Mar 3 14:47:33 EST 2013

Annnd we just went round in a circle… this was the reason for my original
post, NEW businesses can now get a small allocation /22 for a small fee and
then hold on to it to on sell at 600% profit. But existing growing APNIC
members cannot, they need to buy it on the black market.

Rather than APNIC managing, scrutinizing and asking WHY said company really
needs the IP’s they are allocating them to anyone that ‘needs’ them.

*From:* ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net [mailto:
ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] *On Behalf Of *Joshua D'Alton
*Sent:* Sunday, March 03, 2013 2:43 PM
*To:* AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
*Subject:* Re: [AusNOG] IPv4

No shock at all, but if they aren't a cheap hosting provider and have
sufficient margins then running out of IPv4 space shouldn't really impact
their business, as they can buy more on the open market with relative ease.
If a company gets down to half a /24 left and can see they only have 6
months during which they can fulfill current/new customer requests for IP
space, then they know they need to either buy more space to extend that
period, or slow down their growth (by increasing prices).

Looking at China telecom for an example, they've taken the approach of not
turning away new customers but instead allowing them all to fight over IPs
to connect, which will continue to get worse and worse as time goes on.
This will resolve itself inevitably either by CT losing customers to reach
a stable equilibrium, or deciding the cost/benefit of implementing
v6/NAT/whatever tipping point has been reached and therefore maintaining

Is anyone on this list that is running low on IP space actually going to
lose any business, or will they simply fail to grow (as much)? Obviously
inner workings business secrets aside it might be hard for people to step
up and admit it, but I think it is reasonable to assume I'm not posing an
irrefutable question here.

On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 2:28 PM, Bevan Slattery <bevan at slattery.net.au>

This appears as though it may come as a shock to you Joshua but not
everyone running out of space is a cheap hosting provider.


Sent from my iPhone

On 03/03/2013, at 12:15 PM, Joshua D'Alton <joshua at railgun.com.au> wrote:

Size of the business doesn't really matter, its the margins that matter.
You look at someone like Bulletproof, and while they probably don't do much
more traffic than say serversaustralia, I'd bet they charge about 5x as
much. And they support IPv6 AFAIK.

@Peter, yea but there is only no benefit because the content providers like
serversaustralia don't support it. Obviously it isn't limited to just
Australia, most of serversaustralia sized businesses globally don't support
IPv6, but imagine if they did.

@Ross, might or might not make sense, but reality is reality. It isn't so
much about them footing the bill for everyone else to change, it is about
them being competitive in the market. If there is a business, 2yrs or 20
years old, that is facing growth issues due to lack of IP space, then it is
up to them to decide how they want to remain competitive. They could moan
and groan about IPv4 prices coming down and the fact they can't get any
more, or they could move to ipv6 where the potentially large upgrade cost
becomes merely nominal if they look 20 years ahead.

All these arguments seem to mirror the ones the copyright groups use.
Somehow it is the rest of the worlds duty to keep their old dying business
model alive.

On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 12:53 PM, Zone Networks - Joel <
joel at zonenetworks.com.au> wrote:

So what you are basically saying ..

Small business cant afford to move to ipv6

Large business can afford to move to ipv6 but couldnt give a damn..

That is brilliant… so Aus has <1% ipv6 traffic and that is cause of all the
small business not running ipv6

*From:* ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net [mailto:
ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] *On Behalf Of *Joshua D'Alton
*Sent:* Sunday, 3 March 2013 12:34 PM
*To:* AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
*Subject:* Re: [AusNOG] IPv4

No one forced them into business. No one made them go for lower margins
that would mean they aren't/weren't IPv6 ready.

If they decided to hop onto the sinking ship without a lifevest, its their
own damn fault. If they went into business with software like cPanel and
did nothing to try push for proper IPv6 support, again that is their own
fault. Bigpond and Optus have very little reason from content serving
perspective to have IPv6, so it was up to the major sources of content to
get their side ready so that people like Bigpond and Optus actually had
benefit in rolling out IPv6. Do you think David Thodey is going to go to
his board and say "oh hey guys, here's a $100 million proposal to ready our
network for IPv6, of course it won't benefit anyone as none of the content
out there is IPv6, but it will cost us more if we have to do it later" and
get an answer anything other than "bugger off, not interested, it might
cost us more later but all we care about is this years bottom line, screw
the future that is the next CEOs problem"?

Maybe instead of looking at it like the world is shafting these smaller
businesses, maybe look at it like the world has given them a free ride all
this time, and now it is time for them to step up. And if that means their
business folds, well that means more customers for businesses that WILL
survive and manage to implement IPv6 before the 22nd century.

I gotta tell you though, over the past year or so there have been some
fairly massive players on the global stage that have all started charging a
lot more for IPv4, and aside from a few complaints from businesses being
run out of India or Malaysia or somewhere where low margins work really
well, the majority of customers have understood the reality of the cost of
IPv4. And none of them have left the providers, because while the IPv4 cost
increased, overall these lowish margin providers are still a damn sight
cheaper than the majority of companies.

On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 12:21 PM, Peter Betyounan <
peter at serversaustralia.com.au> wrote:

So basically any new businesses that are 1/4 of that age are
collateral damage in this mess , great view.

There is no force behind change then software providers like Cpanel
who would hold half the worlds content would move faster on forward
planning on ipv6. Big providers are at fault as it has been said no
residential move has been made by the likes of bigpond and Optus so
take up has been short of nil by market as no substantial end users
have ipv6.

Laying the blame on small providers is plain wrong.

Peter Betyounan

On 03/03/2013, at 7:06 AM, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith at yahoo.com.au> wrote:

>> ________________________________
>> From: Peter Betyounan <peter at serversaustralia.com.au>
>> To: Jared Hirst <jared.hirst at serversaustralia.com.au>
>> Cc: "ausnog at lists.ausnog.net" <ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
>> Sent: Saturday, 2 March 2013 7:16 PM
>> Subject: Re: [AusNOG] IPv4
>> As I have always thought without forceful intervention by the governing
bodies change will not come, financial incentives/penalties will be the key
to this and until all big business can feel this change will not come why
would it when they can CGNAT / buy more IP's / etc etc . The issue here is
small to medium business who do not have the funds to buy more IP's will
eventually die automatically monopolizing the market by leaving the big
players which sucks for competition..../end rant.
> It won't specifically be IPv6 or running out of IPv4 addresses that will
have caused these businesses to fail. What those businesses will have
really done is failed to plan ahead. In this instance, they've had 10 to 15
years to prepare and plan, and to incorporate the costs of the future
upgrade into their current product prices. In most other instances e.g. a
new tax, they'll have less than 12 months to prepare for it. A business
that can't plan ahead with a 10 to 15 year notification period probably
shouldn't deserve to survive, because it also probably doing a lot of other
things wrong too, and has such slim margins that it doesn't have any
ability to cope with the reasonable yet unexpected cost increases. Would
they survive if power prices go up by 20%?
> This sounds harsh, but it is the reality. Businesses that aren't good at
being a business fail, and the resources they weren't utilising very well
(e.g. people, infrastructure), are absorbed into businesses that are better
at being businesses.
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